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Thread: Slug Size vs Speed

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Slug Size vs Speed

    This is my first post here, and I can tell I like it already. I have been a reloader for close to 10 years, however, I have only really started casting recently. I have been shooting a lot of rifles recently, but at heart, I'm a shotgunner. I've been playing with slugs for years in smooth bore and rifled barrels. One I had real good luck with was a Shotgun Bullet Company "buckbuster" slug. I eventually ran out, as the company disappeared around the year 2000. Recently I have been shooting ballistic products LBC sabot slug, and with my ultra slug hunter, I am getting 2-3" groups at 100 yards, and a muzzle velocity of 1950 fps. I shot a couple deer with them, and they do the job, but what is really disappointing is the drop of these slugs at long range. Zeroed 2" high at 50 yards, I am getting 6-8" groups at 200 yards, but impact is about 30" low. I calculate a ballistic coefficient of 0.055. It doesn't get much worse than that. Its a slug that is pretty well topped out at 125 yards, which I am ok with. 75 yards is about all the range I need for deer. The only reason I wanted a good 200 yard load is because any inline muzzleloader is easily a 200 yard gun, so why not hunt with the muzzleloader? This year I wanted to try Ballistic Products sabot for .50 bullets, and found it to be discontinued. The only sabot I was able to find is from Slugs R Us. While it is meant to stay attached to the slug in the same way as the BPI LBC slug (killing the BC), I found if I slit them, the petals seem to open up pretty well. I have loaded up a few with 40 grains Longshot, and .50 Lee REAL bullets. I found with the .50 320 gr (casted 305 grain) Lee REAL bullets, they push rather easily through my ultra slug hunter, but fit very snug in my benelli nova rifled barrel. If results are promising, I may try a .510 bullet.





    At the same time I'm thinking that I don't need all that range, so why not shoot a big hunk of lead? I am really intrigued by Accurate Molds 73-770S, which is a .730 slug that weighs 770 grains. 1200-1300 fps would still be point blank shooting to 125 yards, and would put a big hit on anything. I have always loved big slugs. I may have to slug my barrel, and get a mold.

    On a separate, but related project, I am looking to get a .735 round ball mold to try in smooth bores. For this I am only looking for minute of pie plate at 50 yards, however, from what I have seen, these larger than bore slugs shoot much better than that. I would also try them in my rifled barrels to see how they do.

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Can't comment on the sabot slugs but yes, the 0.735" RB's can be quite accurate to at least 50 yards. I get 3" - 4" groups at 50 yards from smoothbore and got several 2" +/- a bit groups at 50 yards from a borrowed rifled Remington 870.

    I find that a plastic gas seal and hard card wad column worked best for me in smoothbore and I used the same loads in the rifled gun. I did not expect very good accuracy from the rifled gun as the 1:36" twist is awfully fast for the big 'ol round ball but it worked.

    I am undecided on 0.735" RB's being too large since there is so little meat at the equator. I used a dowel and mallet to drive a ball through my barrel to check for swaging and bore friction. It took very little effort to start it and almost none to drive it through. So while oversize in diameter, they size to bore very easily and show a nice "belt" around the equator and the RB's shot through rifled bore were very nicely engraved. I am thinking that 0.730"/0.732" is actually a bit undersize.

    Longbow

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    This is a subject I'm very interested in. I live in shotgun only country and use Marlin 512 Slugmasters. I've been looking at either cast S&W 500 bullets or Accurate makes a sabot mold or two as well. The 300gr range is about right for a 200yrs slug gun. What is your alloy? I'm thinking 12-14 BHN should be good. Sabots https://www.midwayusa.com/product/27...let-pack-of-50 Mold http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=50-325P-D.png mold http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=50-410E-D.png What load are you using to get close to 2,000fps? Jay

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master

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    As for BC, I have to think that the BC of any full bore slug will be poor unless it is really, really heavy. Not sure what styles of sabots are available not being a sabot shooter but a .45 or .50 cal. boolit with decent BC in a sabot is likely your best bet if you want to extend range.

    Another potential alternative is the Ed Hubel approach of using very large charges of slow powders to achieve much higher than normal slug velocities at normal shotgun pressures. If you haven't seen it, here is the thread:

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...FH-Slug-Tester

    There are some posts with load data but best to contact Ed for specifics. It seems to me that cpileri posted some results of testing some of Ed's loads. Be aware though that some loads exceed SAAMI specs and are only to be used in USH or equivalent strength guns.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master OnHoPr's Avatar
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    Well, your general conclusions are close. The full bore with its low BC is for the really experienced shooters pass 100 yds. Not only drop pass 125 yds, but wind pass 75 yds can play havoc on the full bore slug. Back a few years ago the slug reloading forums were really active. They have drastically dwindled.

    If you go to SW you should be able to find, I think they are, CSS sabots for a buck a piece. I have never used them, but numerous post of 200 yd shooting is possible with them from what I have read. I just found out the BPI Blue RSS sabot is discontinued. They were the only real possibility of trying for the 200 yd feat of reloading sabots on a anytime purchase scale.

    Ed Hubel came up with a sabot. It was a 58 cal sabot. You could have found a decent shaped BC 58 cal and played at the 200 yard range with them. They looked really good before the shot and after the shot. The gray and blue RSS sabots I think were having a little inconsistency maybe due to the type of nylon or plastic they used. But, that is just a guess.

    Uncle Dino on this site came up with a sabot that looked pretty good, but I haven't seem much more on the topic. Ajay, VideoMemories, was wanting to make sabots and made a bunch of CAD drawings and this and that and guys were wanting to buy them. He really just didn't go into production after a bunch of advertising. Maybe he was just trying to get a market feel.

    If somebody was to start a group buy sort of deal maybe the slug reloading faction could get Uncle Dino or Ed Hubel to come up with 10,000 minimum maybe 20,000 or 30,000 type order.

    Why, because rifled barrels with scopes should be able to shoot pass a 100 yds.

    Factory ammo is getting cheaper in the sabot shooting category. The only other thing about factory ammo is that it is always changing. For example, the Buckhammers, when they were discontinued guys had to go out and buy another 10 or 15 types of factory ammo to see which one shot best out of their slug gun. That can get expensive as well. That is why you hear of guys buying a couple of case of shells to last a few years after they find a load that their gun likes.

    On a last note, yes the sabot slug can shoot 200 yds, finding reloading components to do it is a little scarce. Sure beats having to spend a hour cleaning your gun every time you shoot, wondering if it will fire if it was in a trunk last night when it was down to 20 degrees and @ 11:00 it is 50 degrees and muggy, or having a couple of tags on a long weekend and not being able to have a repeater format.
    May you hands be warmed on a frosty day.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I could go out today and find a factory sabot load that would shoot well at 200 yards, but at $3+ per shot, no way. I'm not someone whose slug gun sits until a few days before deer season, use last years ammo to make sure I'm still sighted in, and buy a new box for that year. I put a few hundred slugs downrange every year, and I want that number to climb closer to 1000.

    I went out and shot my custom sabots for the first time. Accuracy was poor to say the least, but there is hope. The slug was blowing through the bottom of the sabot on every shot. 40 grains of Longshot is more than safe with these, there was not even a hint of a bulge in a gun that bulges with factory loads. I think my next step is to get some .510 or .515 bullets, and try some spacers to keep them from blowing through the sabot. I'm thinking felt wads or fiber wads. Hopefully my ultra slug hunter will be back in action soon. I didn't like the 3-9x rifle scope I had on it. Not enough eye relief. I will be putting a Leupold 1-4x on it soon.

    I've never had a single problem with my Thompson Center Impact. I've hunted in -10 and snowing, and 70 and muggy. Never even a hangfire. If Minnesota allowed scopes during muzzleloading season, I would hunt regular season as well with one. With 100gr Blackhorn 209 and a Hornady FPB, that gun will shoot 2 MOA all day with open sights. For me, a scope is a big help threading a bullet through thick brush, which is the one and only reason my slug gun still gets used on deer. Muzzleloader or slug gun, all mine get cleaned every single time I shoot them. At the end of the day with my muzzleloader, I shoot it, pull the breech plug, and run a bore snake through it a couple times. Done in under a minute. But I digress, this is a shotgun thread not a muzzleloader.

    One very big advantage of casting a big full bore slug, is that once I have the mold, I will always be able to make them. It wont matter if a company goes under and I can't get a particular bullet or sabot anymore. Presumably all I will need is gas seals and fiber wads. Assuming a BC of .12 for the 1 3/4 oz slug, with a MV of 1300, the trajectory almost matches the LBC sabot at 2000 fps, but with a ton of energy. I will be getting the .735 round ball mold for sure, maybe that will turn out to shoot well enough in the rifled barrel. I'll focus on the Slugs R Us sabot for now.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    Not to be discouraging and you won't be since you are a "shotgunner at heart," just that the big .73 cal slugs @ about 770 grn are punishing on the shooter end. I shoot a USH too and an 870 weighted heavy in the stock, both with nikon slughunter scopes. Have loaded and shot most all you can think of plus at least one you can't...a full bore zinc slug, longer than most,.731 and 477 grn that worked out pretty well. The single best place I can tell you to start is with Uncle Dino's 1 oz slugs swaged on a hard plastic base. Great accuracy at 100 yds, just need trying at 150. Look at him in vendor sponsors and Furycustombullets. Several thread here about it including tests by several folks. Welcome to the big lead club, lot's of good reading here. Lot's of experience too.
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
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  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I have a very good idea what it will feel like. I've lit off turkey loads in single shot shotguns. A 5.25 pound H&R with a 1 3/4 oz load at 1200 fps is pretty bad. I've gone so far as to shoot 2 1/4 oz loads in 3 1/2" shells. A 1 3/4 oz slug should be manageable in a relatively heavy ultra slug hunter, supposedly with a rifle powder, they kick even less. I've already made up my mind. I'm in full focus for turkey hunting next week, but sometime this summer I will be trying those giant slugs, as well as full bore round balls, and hopefully I can get these sabots to work out. I'm not too concerned about long range shooting. I just think its a waste to be shooting these LBC sabot slugs so fast, and they just run out of steam right away. The slug itself only weights around 380 grains, so its no powerhouse either. It is incredibly accurate, so no complaints there.
    Last edited by megasupermagnum; 04-02-2017 at 11:50 PM.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    I have quite a few of the BPI RSS sabots left. Never had any true success with them. Closest I've gotten was 5" @ 50 yards which is unacceptable.

    I love the SlugRus sabots. I got the 12 and 20 ga mold for the Hammerhead slug. These shoot outstanding out of my USH, but I need more load work up for my H&R Ultra Lite Slug hunter in 20 ga. I wasn't pleased with those results at all.

    I also have the Accumold 770 mold and those slugs are touching at 50 yards. Haven't shot further than that yet. And as Hogtamer mentioned, the recoil is brutal, but I'm a sucker for pain.

    Back to those SlugRus wads, I think the issue you may have is blowing the base out of those wads with that type of projectile. I've tried many types of 50 cal bullets and unless I drop the powder charge considerably, slug setback blows a hole straight through them. With their mold, the base of the slug never gets pushed through the base of the wad.

    Uncle Dino makes some damn fine and accurate swaged slugs. I've been helping him over the last year and a half with load development. He's the Slug whisperer.

    Here's a couple of groups:
    Slugsrus out of my USH:


    Same slug out of my Mossberg 835:



    Uncle D's swaged slugs at 100 yards:

    Slugsrus at 100 yards:



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  10. #10
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    If you search this page of accumold, you'll find my 50 yard groups and velocity with my 770 grain shoulder boulders.


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  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Shotgun slugs are not a rifle. You simply can not expect them to shoot that far.

    On top of that, there is a LOT of air around a moving deer. So unless you have a perfect standing shot where the deer does NOT see the muzzle flash and outjump the slug you are simply expecting too much from a slug. They are designed to work with low pressure and lower speeds for a short range solution. The point being that a shotgun slug which misses would rarely ever go a quarter mile much less the common 2 miles or more of a high powered rifle.

    As to the drop, well that is just a matter of learning to accurately judge distance and holdover.

    But by the time a slug has gone past 100 yards it has lost most of its speed and energy.
    Simply put by the time it gets there it lacks what is needed to do the job correctly.

    I grew up hunting deer with shotgun and slugs and harvested many. My one rule, the closer the better. To the point that my hunting partners started teasing me about it. Ok so I dropped a doe with a single shot and when she stopped somersaulting head over teakettle her nose landed on my boot. Could of happened to anyone.

    But closer is better. Forget anything beyond 50. Waste of powder and lead.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    Shotgun slugs are not a rifle. You simply can not expect them to shoot that far.

    On top of that, there is a LOT of air around a moving deer. So unless you have a perfect standing shot where the deer does NOT see the muzzle flash and outjump the slug you are simply expecting too much from a slug. They are designed to work with low pressure and lower speeds for a short range solution. The point being that a shotgun slug which misses would rarely ever go a quarter mile much less the common 2 miles or more of a high powered rifle.

    As to the drop, well that is just a matter of learning to accurately judge distance and holdover.

    But by the time a slug has gone past 100 yards it has lost most of its speed and energy.
    Simply put by the time it gets there it lacks what is needed to do the job correctly.

    I grew up hunting deer with shotgun and slugs and harvested many. My one rule, the closer the better. To the point that my hunting partners started teasing me about it. Ok so I dropped a doe with a single shot and when she stopped somersaulting head over teakettle her nose landed on my boot. Could of happened to anyone.

    But closer is better. Forget anything beyond 50. Waste of powder and lead.
    Sorry, but I have to disagree. Your statement about wayward slugs being less dangerous than rifle bullets is a myth. Data shows a slug actually travels further. See here: http://dailycaller.com/2012/08/28/ar...r-than-rifles/

    My first slug deer kill was ranged at 163 yards with a Remington AccuTip. Never found the slug.

    Here's vid of 3 guys killing 3 deer with a 20 ga slug at 300 yards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD6ZBruKXGI&t=2s

    So your statement about forgetting about slugs past 50 yards is completely absurd.

  13. #13
    In Remembrance bikerbeans's Avatar
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    heavy slug info

    I hope the attachment came through. Not that BT needs it but a little support for his position regarding slugs. The BC I used is a little low for this slug, accurate 730g HB. The velocity is for a normal load, I can get about 1,500 fps but my shoulder and forehead don't like it. A 1,000 ft-lb of energy at 250 yards would make a nice hole in a deer.

    BB

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    Shotgun slugs are not a rifle. You simply can not expect them to shoot that far.

    On top of that, there is a LOT of air around a moving deer. So unless you have a perfect standing shot where the deer does NOT see the muzzle flash and outjump the slug you are simply expecting too much from a slug. They are designed to work with low pressure and lower speeds for a short range solution. The point being that a shotgun slug which misses would rarely ever go a quarter mile much less the common 2 miles or more of a high powered rifle.

    As to the drop, well that is just a matter of learning to accurately judge distance and holdover.

    But by the time a slug has gone past 100 yards it has lost most of its speed and energy.
    Simply put by the time it gets there it lacks what is needed to do the job correctly.

    I grew up hunting deer with shotgun and slugs and harvested many. My one rule, the closer the better. To the point that my hunting partners started teasing me about it. Ok so I dropped a doe with a single shot and when she stopped somersaulting head over teakettle her nose landed on my boot. Could of happened to anyone.

    But closer is better. Forget anything beyond 50. Waste of powder and lead.
    I don't like to correct people, but you are a bowhunter at heart. This thread is about making slugs yourself. A hornady SST shoots flat to about 180 yards, and hits 6" low at 200. It doesn't go sub-sonic until 300 yards, and enough energy alone to kill a deer past 500 yards. It would be lethal to a person past 1000 yards. Time of flight to 200 yards is .38 seconds. No way any living being could jump the bullet. There are plenty of slugs equivalent to the Hornady SST, so finding one that shoots accurately is relatively easy, and there is no question they are deer killers to 200 yards. I would just rather load them myself. I can't shoot enough at $3+ a shot to keep me happy, plus I like to experiment.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I checked out your post about the 770 Accumold. I assume that last post was a good group with STEEL powder, correct? I see Ed Hubel jumped in and posted data for 1900 fps with safe pressures. The 900-1000 fps you were seeing is a little slow for my tastes, but 1900 might be a bit far. That is approaching 50 bmg, except in an 8 pound single shot. I plan to fill my stock and fore end with lead to keep recoil down.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    I checked out your post about the 770 Accumold. I assume that last post was a good group with STEEL powder, correct? I see Ed Hubel jumped in and posted data for 1900 fps with safe pressures. The 900-1000 fps you were seeing is a little slow for my tastes, but 1900 might be a bit far. That is approaching 50 bmg, except in an 8 pound single shot. I plan to fill my stock and fore end with lead to keep recoil down.
    Listen when I say this. I'm a stout ol boy. 6'1" 300 lbs. I am not in the lest bit recoil sensitive at all. I once shot a round of skeet with 3.5" magnum 2 oz turkey loads to break in my 935. Even went 19 for 25 at that.

    So when I say that 770 gr slug pushing around 1,000 fps is the most brutal recoil I'd ever felt, I wasn't bull 'in.

    I'm thinking it close to not humanly possible to hang on to an 8lb gun shooting these things at 1900 fps.

    And if you ever get the gumption to do so, please press record.


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  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I don't doubt you one bit on the recoil, but I am willing to give them a try. I'm not small either at 6'5" and currently 335 pounds. I am 270 pounds when in shape, I was a football player. I have a bunch of rifle powders, but don't remember if I have the one Ed Hubel listed. If I do, I will definitely record shooting them. When you casted them, were you using pure lead, and were they close to 770 grains?

    For the time being, I am going turkey hunting for the next couple weeks. Yesterday, however, I finally got around to finishing my dads late Christmas present. Technically I got him the scope mount, but never got around to putting it on until yesterday. Its a Remington 870 bird/slug combo, but he recently bought a brand new 870 with just a 28" vent rib barrel. He wanted to keep this one as a designated slug gun, but as he gets older, he is having a hard time with open sights. Last year I let him borrow my scoped Benelli Nova, and he shot twice and got both deer. He had missed deer the previous 2 years with open sights. I have shot the 870, its got adjustable rifle sights, but a smooth bore with IC choke from back before rifled barrels existed. I got him a Da Mar scope mount from Brownells. The mount uses 6 screws rather than 3 for most rails. I drilled and tapped the receiver, and mounted it good and tight with Loctite. I got it straight with a level, and am very pleased with the result. I then used a beer can, cut a good piece out, and used it to shim the barrel tight in the receiver. I hit the barrel tight to the rear with a mallet, and really cranked down the barrel nut. I then drilled and tapped the barrel to the receiver with a #10-32 screw also with loctite. Now all it needs is a Leupold shotgun 1-4x scope. I am very proud of the gun, and can't wait to try a bunch of slugs in it. My goal is an honest (fliers included) under 5" groups at 100 yards.



    Last edited by megasupermagnum; 04-07-2017 at 09:46 PM.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master

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    You can weight the cavity in the stock with foam and lead... put a tube of some sort over the nut that holds the stock on and pack around that. it helps. Love the Wingmasters! BTW, got some Hubel sabots on paper @ 200 yds using a 575 minie (you can read about it about it midway in the long Hubel thread.) My mold cast oversize and was not a perfect fit due to an internal ridge in the sabot. Uncle Dino swaged some slugs to fit but the sabots are no longer available. If enough of us were interested we might could convince him to have another run of them made. With a little tweaking I'm pretty sure it could be extremely effective at long range.
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
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  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Slugs are not going to expand much especially at long range. Not that they need to as they start out bigger diameter than almost all expanded rifle bullets. Effectiveness will be based less on remaining energy than on remaining momentum. Momentum density is the primary determinant in penetration. You can have high muzzle velocities when using lightweight slugs but that quickly dissipates. A heavier slug will maintain its velocity much better but its lower velocity will result in greater drop and higher trajectories. You must make your own choices and accept the consequences. Physics is physics.
    Last edited by BAGTIC; 04-14-2017 at 06:18 PM.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAGTIC View Post
    Slugs are not going to expand much especially at long range. Not that they need to as they start out bigger diameter than almost all rifle bullets. Physics is physics.
    A deer is a deer. Don't take much to kill them if you put the bullet where it needs to go.

    I'm a Bowhunter above all things. I've killed countless deer with a 70# compound shooting almost 100# of KE, 470 gr arrow @ 330 fps.

    I've killed a lot with a homemade bamboo backed Osage long bow with twisted hog gut for the string and rivercane arrows.

    Whether that arrow was traveling 330 fps or 160 fps, they all had one thing in common: proper shot placement.

    Here in Texas, .223 is a very popular round for both deer and hogs. I've killed a lot of pigs with it and only a few deer. Got the job done each time. Are their better choices? Sure, depending on who you ask .

    But it all boils down to how accurately can you put slug, arrow, etc in a given location, in a consistent manner.


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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check