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Thread: How Much Weaker Is Goex Compared to Original Black Powder?

  1. #1
    Boolit Man
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    How Much Weaker Is Goex Compared to Original Black Powder?

    I occasionally load black powder shotgun shells, and I recently came across something I found interesting. A published load from the Lyman Black Powder Handbook listed a load of 100 grains of FFFG under 1 1/8oz of shot for a 3 dram velocity of 1200 fps. 3 drams is in fact 82.5 grains, a 17.5% difference from the dram designated velocity, to the velocity of a load of FFFG Goex. It seems then that Goex must be weaker than the powders used at the time the dram designated velocities were established. My question is, by how much? I would like to have some idea as to how much I need to compensate for the power difference to get the listed dram equivalent velocities.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    Chill Wills's Avatar
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    It is weaker and slower. You are correct.
    The amount varies lot to lot.
    The older GOEX made in PA was not so slow.

    I would guess that current lots of GOEX run 7 to 10% less velocity.
    Not all powder was equial back in the day, either.

    The new, made by GOEX, Olde Eynsford is good and fast(er) in Cartridge Rifles

    I'm not a shotgun loader so I can not say how it responds in that.
    Chill Wills

  3. #3
    Boolit Master Big Mak's Avatar
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    I just picked up some 2F Goex as the LGS was out of the usual 1 1/2f Old Eyns.
    I still have 50 rds of Old Enys loaded.
    After reading this, I better not mix my next batch of Goex with the Old Eyns when long range shooting, eh?

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Toymaker's Avatar
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    I've been testing Goex FFg, FFFg, Olde Eynsford 2F and Swiss 1 1/2 in a 38-55. The first thing I noticed was a difference in granulation between the Goex FFg and Olde Eynsford 2F. The OE is finer.
    Pretty consistently the volumes of powder from having almost no compression up to about 1/3 inch compression have Goex FFg producing the lowest velocity; the Swiss is second; and the OE is fastest.
    Using OE as the base an equal volume of the Swiss will be about 3% slower and the Goex will be about 10% slower.
    Note that this is in my rifle, 38-55 caliber. I haven't tested this in my 45-70 or any other rifle/caliber.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master

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    I have also found the the Goex likes more compression than either Olde Ensford or Swiss to burn at its cleanest and best Standard deviations.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toymaker View Post
    I've been testing Goex FFg, FFFg, Olde Eynsford 2F and Swiss 1 1/2 in a 38-55. The first thing I noticed was a difference in granulation between the Goex FFg and Olde Eynsford 2F. The OE is finer.
    Pretty consistently the volumes of powder from having almost no compression up to about 1/3 inch compression have Goex FFg producing the lowest velocity; the Swiss is second; and the OE is fastest.
    Using OE as the base an equal volume of the Swiss will be about 3% slower and the Goex will be about 10% slower.
    Note that this is in my rifle, 38-55 caliber. I haven't tested this in my 45-70 or any other rifle/caliber.
    That sounds about right for what I see in my .45 cal rifles.

    Chris.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Not all powder was the same back when blackpowder was the only powder.
    This is why a chronograph is a good tool to have. The last edition of the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook I have has a lot of somewhat "bogus" material in it. There's no telling whether the shotgun who ever did the testing for that was back bored or not, and as with most things reloading a result given with one lot of powder and components, may not be the same with your lot of powder, components and gun.
    GUSA #6
    People will forget what you said...
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    But People will NEVER forget how you made them feel

    Want to join in adult conversation about shooting the old ways without the hysterics associated with other places?http://historicshooting.com/mybb/index.php

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    The Goex powder we get is simply the leftovers from military contracts, which consume the great majority of Goex product. Black powder as required for artillery igniter packs, explosive bolts and squibbs is made to a much higher standard than sporting black powder, and what we get are essentially the screened and sieved floor sweepings and leftovers which don't meet military requirements.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master Big Mak's Avatar
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    I didn't bring my chrono to the range yesterday (should have, I was the only one there in the morning!) but I did have to drop the rear site down for the Goex rounds as they were shooting higher than the Old Eyns. (same 510 Lyman cast bullet lubed with SPG and both with 62 gr by volume)

  10. #10
    Boolit Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    From the velocity testing I've done with the Olde Eynsford, those loads were probably doing something in the 75 fps higher velocity than the same volume of regular goex, and most likely the actual weight of the charge was up some 5 gr.
    GUSA #6
    People will forget what you said...
    People will forget what you did...
    But People will NEVER forget how you made them feel

    Want to join in adult conversation about shooting the old ways without the hysterics associated with other places?http://historicshooting.com/mybb/index.php

  11. #11
    Boolit Master

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    Which old powder, they were all different to a degree. That is why old cartridges were loaded to velocity and not to specific grains. To a target shooter each Batch of powder is tested and the load adjusted. Curtis and Harvey was the cleanest shooting and Meteor was like shooting charcoal and sludge. Dupont was hotter and dryer than Curtis but had more velocity per grain than GOEX does now. So far I have tested and shot and kept note on 12 different canned powders old and newer including some going back to 1868.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    This has been a fascinating read. Many thanks to all who have contributed so far, and in advance to those with more to add.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Big Mak's Avatar
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    Went to the monthly Garand shoot with my Trapdoor. I only competed in the Slow shoot portion of the Garand shoot. And my goal was to see how this Goex performs over Old Eyns.

    I had an OUTSTANDING session.

    At 200 yards, I beat all the Garand shooters (all 3 of them. ) for the Slow fire portion. Mind you, I used shooting sticks while they slow shot "Standing", Sitting and Prone. My total score for 3 x 10 rds slow fire session was 253.

    My over all marksmanship was 15 out of 30 shots inside the black (9 and 10 ring) with 3 of those inside the X (Bullseyes) The other 15 were on the 8 and 7 ring and only 1 in the 6 ring.

    These were SR22 200 yard targets, so the black is 13" across. I don't know if that's good for you veterans of 200 yd or further shooting but I felt good about it!

    Loving this 500 gr Lyman bullet. It is a very accurate round with 62 gr of Goex back behind it and SPG lubed grooves. Oh, and I *DID* have to elevate the Buffington site another 25 yards higher for the Goex as compared to Old Eyns. (Found this out during the warm up with 7 shots)

    One of the fellows snapped this picture of me.
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  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    That is very cool. I am glad you are interested in the old Springfield.
    I very much wish we had more people the would put in the time to shoot them!

    To give you an idea of how accurate Issue Springfield's (45-70) can be, The BPTR NRA National 200 yard (Military) record for prone is 100-4X. All 10's four of which are X's

    I used to hold a Springfield BPCR silhouette match, one per year in Oct. We had a small turn out - a match with in our regular BPCR Silhouette match. Very good scores were shot at times. The post front sight can be hard for old eyes.

    The above record was shot by Richard Wood, my shooting partner and I was coaching for him. This, during the national matches in Raton, NM
    He also shot the current 200y offhand record of 94.

    I only wish all the countries trapdoor shooters lived with in driving range of each other! We would all get together and have monthly matches.
    Chill Wills

  15. #15
    Boolit Master Big Mak's Avatar
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    Thanks Chill! Yes, I wish more were around here for sure. All 10's! Wow! That is impressive!
    Well, I felt good with 3 X's today!

    Off to the drop tube room!

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Mak View Post
    Well, I felt good with 3 X's today!

    Off to the drop tube room!
    Good. You should feel good. FWIW- Two thumbs up from me!
    Chill Wills

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Curtis and Harvey was the cleanest shooting and Meteor was like shooting charcoal and sludge.
    Interesting that you made this statement.
    I did an extensive comparison between a Dec 1955 lot of C&H FFg and a March 1973 lot of Meteor FFg for: sieve ratio % - density - equal powder charge - fps - ES - SD and tight patches weighed & dried of fouling viewed under a 20x magnifier. The results were so close that I was and still am 99% confirmed that the C-I-L Meteor was either left over C&H or C&H formulation or processing at the Ardeer, Scotland powder plant of Noble Industries. C-I-L was a Canadian subsidiary of Noble. Noble bought out C&H at Ardeer in 1967
    Last edited by John Boy; 04-02-2017 at 09:32 PM.
    Regards
    John

  18. #18
    Boolit Master Big Mak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KCSO View Post
    Which old powder, they were all different to a degree. That is why old cartridges were loaded to velocity and not to specific grains. To a target shooter each Batch of powder is tested and the load adjusted. Curtis and Harvey was the cleanest shooting and Meteor was like shooting charcoal and sludge. Dupont was hotter and dryer than Curtis but had more velocity per grain than GOEX does now. So far I have tested and shot and kept note on 12 different canned powders old and newer including some going back to 1868.
    I had 2 sealed can of this. One of which I opened, and loaded 100+ rds, albeit 50+ years old. Shot really well!


  19. #19
    Boolit Man
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    Original black powder was serpentine. Todays Goex is far stronger than any serpentine.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by ogre View Post
    Original black powder was serpentine. Todays Goex is far stronger than any serpentine.
    Can you explain a little and maybe give some background?
    Chill Wills

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check