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Thread: Duplicating Original 7.62x54r Loads with Lead?

  1. #41
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    "3. Four shots are fired. They must hit in a box 15cm (I'll have to check that number) above the point of aim. That's about 6 inches. Group size needs to be about 15cm as well; again, check this or I'll have to find time to do so.

    This should roughly equal point of aim at both 100 and 200 meters, but might still be a little high. Not a foot, though!"

    Might double check on the ammunition used for "zeroing". Most "D" ammunition I've tested in M91/28s will hit about 6" high if the sights have not been changed. That is right at a 300 meter zero with that ammunition. The lighter weight and higher velocity of "L" ammunition does make it hit higher, about 8 - 10" at 100 yards/meters. If "L" ammunition is used then the rifle must be zeroed for that ammunition. With original M91/28 or earlier sights that were in arshins they are actually zeroed (if correct) at 400 arshins; about 330 meters. Thus they will hit even higher with "L" type ammunition.

    M91/30 sights are different having shorter range sight setting allowing for the zeroing procedure you mention. No way of knowing with milsurp rifles if they were correctly zeroed and what ammunition they may have been zeroed with. It's a **** shoot.

    Larry Gibson

  2. #42
    Boolit Master Josh Smith's Avatar
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    P.S. No idea why my phone likes to capitalize "arshini". That's plural, though. Singular is "arshin". About 28"; a soldier's stride length. Rgds, JS

  3. #43
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    "3. Four shots are fired. They must hit in a box 15cm (I'll have to check that number) above the point of aim. That's about 6 inches. Group size needs to be about 15cm as well; again, check this or I'll have to find time to do so.

    This should roughly equal point of aim at both 100 and 200 meters, but might still be a little high. Not a foot, though!"


    Might double check on the ammunition used for "zeroing". Most "D" ammunition I've tested in M91/28s will hit about 6 - 8" high if the sights have not been changed and they were properly zeroed to begin with. That is right at a 300 meter zero with that ammunition. The lighter weight and higher velocity of "L" ammunition does make it hit higher, about 8 - 10" at 100 yards/meters. If "L" ammunition is used then the rifle must be zeroed for that ammunition. With original M91/28 or earlier sights that were in arshins they are actually zeroed (if correct) at 400 arshins; about 330 meters. Thus they will hit even higher with "L" type ammunition.

    M91/30 sights are different having shorter range sight setting allowing for the zeroing procedure you mention. No way of knowing with milsurp rifles if they were correctly zeroed and what ammunition they may have been zeroed with. Assuming all refurbished ComBloc MNs were zeroed after refurbishing is a false assumption. About like assuming a bore sighted rifle is zeroed.......

    Larry Gibson

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    "3. Four shots are fired. They must hit in a box 15cm (I'll have to check that number) above the point of aim. That's about 6 inches. Group size needs to be about 15cm as well; again, check this or I'll have to find time to do so.

    This should roughly equal point of aim at both 100 and 200 meters, but might still be a little high. Not a foot, though!"

    Might double check on the ammunition used for "zeroing". Most "D" ammunition I've tested in M91/28s will hit about 6" high if the sights have not been changed. That is right at a 300 meter zero with that ammunition. The lighter weight and higher velocity of "L" ammunition does make it hit higher, about 8 - 10" at 100 yards/meters. If "L" ammunition is used then the rifle must be zeroed for that ammunition. With original M91/28 or earlier sights that were in arshins they are actually zeroed (if correct) at 400 arshins; about 330 meters. Thus they will hit even higher with "L" type ammunition.

    M91/30 sights are different having shorter range sight setting allowing for the zeroing procedure you mention. No way of knowing with milsurp rifles if they were correctly zeroed and what ammunition they may have been zeroed with. It's a **** shoot.

    Larry Gibson
    Larry,

    So we're on the same page, what is a 91/28? I assumed it was a typo, but you've used it since. Do you mean a Finnish M28?

    You're right about pre-WWII rifles. Most had a low sight setting of 300 to 400 meters. Reports from WWI had soldiers shooting over the enemy's heads during trench warfare when only the heads we visible, so the next battle rifle evolution saw 100 to 200 meter settings given to sights.

    Regards,


    Josh

  5. #45
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    P.S. No idea why my phone likes to capitalize "arshini". That's plural, though. Singular is "arshin". About 28"; a soldier's stride length. Rgds, JS

    Yep, it's a "step", a "stride", the distance between two feet when walking, etc. or whatever you want to call it but it is about 28" and is the measurement of range settings on MNs pre'28. After 1930 and the adoption of the metric system by the Soviets most of the rear sights were either replaced during rebuild or restamped with meter range designations.

    "So we're on the same page, what is a 91/28? I assumed it was a typo, but you've used it since. Do you mean a Finnish M28?"

    No it was not a typo, I was just dating myself on discussions of MN sights. Back in the day M91/28 referred to those Tsarist/Soviet MNs (models '91 through M28s) with sights marked in arshins pre adoption of the metric system by the Soviets and adoption of the metric correct rear sight on the M91/30, sometimes referred to in older books as the M18191/30. I should have said M91 through M28s.....just showed my age is all, my bad.......sorry.

    Got my 1st M91 Dragoon in November of '65 (still have it) when the previous owner didn't need it anymore. Been shooting cast bullets in it and other MNs since '69. These days I mostly shoot my Finn M39 with cast in CBA Military Rifle matches. I shoot my M91/30 Sniper with 174 MKs replication the "D" load out to 1000 yards. My M91 Dragoon and Chinese made M1953 I shoot cast in now and then just for fun. Used to shoot a lot of the cheap milsurp in the M91 Dragoon but, alas, it has dried up and I've shot up most of what I had. Only got a couple hundred rounds left.

    Larry Gibson

    Attachment 192943Attachment 192944Attachment 192945
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 04-10-2017 at 02:48 PM.

  6. #46
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    My original 1891 Was a Finn Rebuild, and I still have the original Bands and Sling Swivels for it.
    The guy I sold it to cut it down and then had me make him a stock for it, plus a side mounted scope mount and a custom Bolt handle.
    I had two others and still have one of them that were Finn Rebuilds.
    The one I have currently is Date Stamped on the barrel 1942 that is in original condition

  7. #47
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    Hi. Got two finned m91s both have the moded original sights. I read somewhere the arshin was the Czars pace 27 inches and change, 28 inches for all purposes. Both mine wear the 1942 barrel dates. Those I was told were just barrel dates and could have been fitted on m91s as late as the seventys. Could be true both mine are near new.
    They are fine rifles. The 185 Lee @ .312 works well with 4895.
    Be well
    When you read the fine print you get an education
    when you ignore the fine print you get experience

  8. #48
    Boolit Master Josh Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    P.S. No idea why my phone likes to capitalize "arshini". That's plural, though. Singular is "arshin". About 28"; a soldier's stride length. Rgds, JS

    Yep, it's a "step", a "stride", the distance between two feet when walking, etc. or whatever you want to call it but it is about 28" and is the measurement of range settings on MNs pre'28. After 1930 and the adoption of the metric system by the Soviets most of the rear sights were either replaced during rebuild or restamped with meter range designations.

    "So we're on the same page, what is a 91/28? I assumed it was a typo, but you've used it since. Do you mean a Finnish M28?"

    No it was not a typo, I was just dating myself on discussions of MN sights. Back in the day M91/28 referred to those Tsarist/Soviet MNs (models '91 through M28s) with sights marked in arshins pre adoption of the metric system by the Soviets and adoption of the metric correct rear sight on the M91/30, sometimes referred to in older books as the M18191/30. I should have said M91 through M28s.....just showed my age is all, my bad.......sorry.

    Got my 1st M91 Dragoon in November of '65 (still have it) when the previous owner didn't need it anymore. Been shooting cast bullets in it and other MNs since '69. These days I mostly shoot my Finn M39 with cast in CBA Military Rifle matches. I shoot my M91/30 Sniper with 174 MKs replication the "D" load out to 1000 yards. My M91 Dragoon and Chinese made M1953 I shoot cast in now and then just for fun. Used to shoot a lot of the cheap milsurp in the M91 Dragoon but, alas, it has dried up and I've shot up most of what I had. Only got a couple hundred rounds left.

    Larry Gibson

    Attachment 192943Attachment 192944Attachment 192945
    Thank you, sir.

    The impacts you note for the original M91 are, of course, correct.

    I had never heard the designation 91/28 for the original M91 rifles. That's very good to know, and clarifies a lot of my confusion. We were talking about two different evolutions of the rifle!

    I never considered the original M91 beyond the Finnish variation because relatively few escaped modification to full 91/30 specs. I've heard tell of 91/30s in Russia retaining their original Czarist sighting equipment, but yours is the first I've actually seen. The rest were Finnish.

    Did your examples ever see Soviet refurbishment? I'm guessing not, but would be very interesting if they did, keeping their original sights!

    Regards,

    Josh

  9. #49
    Boolit Master Josh Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leebuilder View Post
    Hi. Got two finned m91s both have the moded original sights. I read somewhere the arshin was the Czars pace 27 inches and change, 28 inches for all purposes. Both mine wear the 1942 barrel dates. Those I was told were just barrel dates and could have been fitted on m91s as late as the seventys. Could be true both mine are near new.
    They are fine rifles. The 185 Lee @ .312 works well with 4895.
    Be well
    Thank you.

    How fast are you pushing those?

    Regards,

    Josh

  10. #50
    Boolit Master Josh Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAGS View Post
    My original 1891 Was a Finn Rebuild, and I still have the original Bands and Sling Swivels for it.
    The guy I sold it to cut it down and then had me make him a stock for it, plus a side mounted scope mount and a custom Bolt handle.
    I had two others and still have one of them that were Finn Rebuilds.
    The one I have currently is Date Stamped on the barrel 1942 that is in original condition
    I really have nothing to say beyond that these sound really nice. I was born just a bit too late!

    Regards,

    Josh

  11. #51
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    Lots of M91 rifles came into the country in the 90's. But the trick was to find one that the Finns did not rebuilt. Just about all of the M91 Dragoons were sold to the Finns and they rebuilt them. I had 2 1917 Remington's at one time. Neither were Finn marked. Wish I still had them. But they did not shoot well and at the time I was after shooters not collectors.

    Seems The ones that the Finns did not get were made into 91/30's. Pretty easy to spot a M91 on a rack with other Mosins. Look at the one about 4 inches longer.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Smith View Post
    Thank you.

    How fast are you pushing those?

    Regards,

    Josh
    I have no chrony. I assume 1900-2000 fPS. What ever 33-35gr gives you. That's about the limit before you make keyholes and fliers.
    They like the Hornady 174gr fmj .3105 ones.
    Be safe
    When you read the fine print you get an education
    when you ignore the fine print you get experience

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by leebuilder View Post
    I have no chrony. I assume 1900-2000 fPS. What ever 33-35gr gives you. That's about the limit before you make keyholes and fliers.
    They like the Hornady 174gr fmj .3105 ones.
    Be safe
    I use the Sierra. 311 in my mosins (1891, 91-30, &M39) over 45gr of imr4064, im hoping once I move in can start casting for them


    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remiel View Post
    I use the Sierra. 311 in my mosins (1891, 91-30, &M39) over 45gr of imr4064, im hoping once I move in can start casting for the


    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    Never tried 4064. I am hooked on 4831 with my j-thingys.
    Be well
    When you read the fine print you get an education
    when you ignore the fine print you get experience

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by leebuilder View Post
    Never tried 4064. I am hooked on 4831 with my j-thingys.
    Be well
    4064 was the only thing I could get for a while, that and somtimes blc2


    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

  16. #56
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    • Lee's "new" C312-185-1R

    05-14-2016,01:31 PM

    Many years ago, back in the mid '70s I picked up a Lee C312-185-1R from a sporting goods store going out of business in then Baker, Oregon. I recall paying $5.95 for the single cavity moulds, I also got my Lee C457-500-FN at the same time for the same price but that mould is another story for another time. The C312-185-1R served me well for many years using bullets cast from it in a Finn M91 and a M91 Dragoon I had got from it's previous owner in SEA. I also used it in several M91s and M1909 7.65 Argentines that were going through my hands at the time and an occasional 7.7 jap and SMLE .303s that came along. It was a very good bullet in all but the occasional oversized 7.7 and .303s. In the Finn M91 (I subsequently traded for a pristine M91 Argentine) and M91 Dragoon the Lee bullet excelled. I shot many a load with that bullet over 28 gr of various 4895s with a Dacron filler w/o much load development. When I picked up an Ishevsk M91/30 sniper and then the Finn M39 I also picked up a single cavity 311299 which also shot okay in both those but not well in the M91 Dragoon. Point is after you get used to 2, 4 and 6 cavity moulds using a single cavity is about like watching slugs race........I got a CBF group buy C314291 and it is a good mould. I also got a new Lyman 314299 and it does extremely well in the Finn M39 and M91/30 sniper. Still I longed for the old Lee 185 which had done so well. So while placing a Midway order a couple months ago I saw the double cavity C312-185-1R was in stock so I got one.

    I really like the new design of Lee's double cavity moulds. The bottom now fits the slot in the Lyman Mag 20 mould guide perfectly. Wasn't long before I pulled the Lee mould out, disassembled it, deburred it, cleaned it thoroughly, lubed it and re-assembled it. While doing that a Mag20 pot of #2 alloy was "brewing". I cast up a bunch and WQ'd them. Using the mould was a dream, I encountered no problems what so ever. The bullets dropped out in excellent condition 2 after 2 after 2 after...........First thing I noticed while doing a visual cull was the new bullet was different than the original. The original had a long GC shank and a shorter nose with longer bearing surface. You can see that on the old cull original C312-185-1R which is the top bullet in the photo. I was some what concerned the new bullet wouldn't shoot well. I shouldn't have been concerned. I could find no dimensional difference between bullets out of either cavity nor was there any weight discrepancy. For practical purposes the bullets from each cavity were identical........doesn'tget any better than that.

    Attachment 193317




    Still not being certain about the performance of the "new" C312-185-1Rs I did not weight sort the bullets as I had never weight sorted the "original's" either. I loaded 4 test strings over 28 - 31 gr milsurp IMR 4895 with a 3/4 gr Dacron filler. Testing in the Finn M39 with the Weaver T-6 scope did not let me down. The accuracy of all 4 test loads is excellent with the 29, 30 and 31 gr loads in need of further testing at 200 yards. All 3 would have scored 100 on the CBA 100/600 target. I was very pleased with the new bullet and will be doing more testing in the Finn M39 and the M91/30 sniper.

    Attachment 193318

    Larry Gibson




    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 04-15-2017 at 10:49 AM.

  17. #57
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    312br was one of my first molds. Then got away from it once I got lyman 314299, to me it looked superior in lenght and form compared to the 312br. I had problems from the start with size played with alloy to increase size/cavity fill out. Played with beagling and had astounding success with both, but their were limits, I figure it was due to the amount of grooves in some rifles, my beagled boolits shot insanely well in my 2 groove No4 but not in other rifles with better or tighter bores. Then I got into PC and had less under size issues, the 312br PCed and sized to .314 is a solid preformer ever since. I wish they could make a .315 version.
    Be well
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    when you ignore the fine print you get experience

  18. #58
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    Hello,

    Would a 1:9.5" twist stabilize a 220grn boolit at 2000fps?

    I personally prefer to keep in the same general velocity:weight range as original loads, meaning, about 3000fps for 150grn bullets, 2700fps for 170grn to 180grn, 2100fps for 200grn to 212grn, and 1900fps for 215grn to 225grn in .30 caliber.

    After I establish my full-power loads, then I'll back off to find what I need. For example, I was pushing SST bullets to around 3000fps with about 1.5moa precision. Because I didn't need that speed or flat trajectory, I backed it off to an estimated 2500fps (45 grains of Varget).

    It's nice to know, though, that I can push it faster if I need to.

    Even if I don't run a cast boolit to 2000fps, I'd like to know I can push it that fast with acceptable results if that's what's needed.

    Regards,

    Josh

  19. #59
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    Honesty Josh you are going to have to try your loads. That's what I do, trial and error. Many work, some don't, please share your results. I will post my results as the summer goes on I have a few 54r casings saved up and plan to pursue a 100m hunting load before the fall. I don't care which boolit I end up with as long as it has predictable accuracy and acts as a meat missle should.
    Be safe
    When you read the fine print you get an education
    when you ignore the fine print you get experience

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Smith View Post
    Hello,

    Would a 1:9.5" twist stabilize a 220grn boolit at 2000fps? .....Josh
    If the bullet is less than 1.65" in length it will stabilize.

    Larry Gibson

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check