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Thread: Duplicating Original 7.62x54r Loads with Lead?

  1. #61
    Boolit Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    BTW; Russian manuals say nothing about fixing bayonets when the MN M91 or the M91.30 "is brought to normal zero". Pictures in the manuals also do not show bayonets fixed in pictures showing the various shooting positions.

    What the manuals do say with regards the M91/30 in particular is the rifle is zeroed at 100 meters with the rear sight set on 300m. For the M91/30 to be considered "zeroed" with the M1908 light ammunition ("L" Ball ammunition) Shooting 4 shot groups the center of the group should be (I'll roughly convert from CM to inches) 4.75" to 8.6" high above the point of aim and deviate not more than 2" left or right. Maximum group size for the 4 shot groups is 6 moa.

    The manuals indicate this zeroing procedure is conducted at unit level with unit armorers assisting by replacing front sight posts and drifting the front sight for windage if needed. The manuals say nothing about the rifles being zeroed at the arsenals. Thus with all the arsenal reconditioned MNs imported many, if not most, may not have been zeroed by actually shooting at all.

    Larry Gibson

  2. #62
    Boolit Man
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    Why does Josh Smith live in Wabatucky and I live across the county line south of LaFontain ( pronounced La-Fountain ) yet I have heard of no such critter by that name?

  3. #63
    Mosin Guy/Forum Sponsor Josh Smith's Avatar
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    I'm not famous or anything... Why would you have heard of me?

    I guess I'm confused.

    Regards,

    Josh

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  4. #64
    Mosin Guy/Forum Sponsor Josh Smith's Avatar
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    I should add:

    Since you're that close, I'd be happy to go to the Bass and Bucks range with you. I can bring a couple 1911 pistols, a Mosin, maybe a Gewehr 88/05, but I'd rather leave the muzzleloaders home. I need to make 45acp brass so I can reload 'em!

    What toys do you have to bring? I need more time on the AR platform.

    Regards,

    Josh

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  5. #65
    Mosin Guy/Forum Sponsor Josh Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    BTW; Russian manuals say nothing about fixing bayonets when the MN M91 or the M91.30 "is brought to normal zero". Pictures in the manuals also do not show bayonets fixed in pictures showing the various shooting positions.

    What the manuals do say with regards the M91/30 in particular is the rifle is zeroed at 100 meters with the rear sight set on 300m. For the M91/30 to be considered "zeroed" with the M1908 light ammunition ("L" Ball ammunition) Shooting 4 shot groups the center of the group should be (I'll roughly convert from CM to inches) 4.75" to 8.6" high above the point of aim and deviate not more than 2" left or right. Maximum group size for the 4 shot groups is 6 moa.

    The manuals indicate this zeroing procedure is conducted at unit level with unit armorers assisting by replacing front sight posts and drifting the front sight for windage if needed. The manuals say nothing about the rifles being zeroed at the arsenals. Thus with all the arsenal reconditioned MNs imported many, if not most, may not have been zeroed by actually shooting at all.

    Larry Gibson
    Larry,

    I've often wondered the same thing about whether the refurbs were ever truly sighted in. The sights with cast base and sheet metal good are WWII. We see so many of these on pre-war Mosins that I suspect they were all thrown in the same Mixmaster bins as everything else.

    If you reference Russian military procedure manuals of the time, you'll notice reference to bayonets being always affixed. It's therefore logical that the rifles would be sighted in with the bayonets on.

    Supporting this theory are tests done be myself and others, and supported by taller sight posts on M38 carbines and PU sniper models, neither of which were issued with bayonets.

    Regards,

    Josh

    (I'm really enjoying this conversation. Thank you!)

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  6. #66
    Boolit Master


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    Josh

    "If you reference Russian military procedure manuals of the time, you'll notice reference to bayonets being always affixed. It's therefore logical that the rifles would be sighted in with the bayonets on."

    That may seem logical to us but it is really an assumption. I have viewed and had translated manuals of the time and found no such reference to rifles being "brought to zero" (that's how the translation of what we call zeroing the rifle is from Russian) with bayonets attached. Actually an early (1930s) Soviet soldiers manual gave instructions on when to fix bayonets and when not to. It also demonstrated how to slide the bayonet on past the front site base, twist locking in place, sliding the locking collar over the front site, turning the collar to line up with the bayonet and then tightening the screw down with the combination tool. The bayonet for the M91 was not a easy take on take off bayonet.

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    As I stated earlier, I have searched high and low for many years having several manuals translated by Army MI Russian interpreters and have yet to find any reference in Russian manuals about M91s being zeroed with bayonets on (internet web sites, on the other hand, are redundant with the assumption though). To the contrary, in the very few Russian manuals that reference zeroing M91s or M91/30s it was always demonstrated (illustrated) without bayonets on the M91 rifles. You might also note the Finnish M91 are very seldom seen with bayonets on them and there is no mention of zeroing the M91s with bayonets fixed in Finnish manuals either that I could find.

    I also worked for a company that used also used very experienced Russian Army veterans (Spetsnatz) who were trained in the use of all Soviet weapons. When I queried them at a range while shooting M91s and M91/30 they said they'd never heard of such a thing. Their actual response translated came out as "b*lls**t" (bovine manure if the program deletes that).

    However, I am always interested in learning and factual research. Can you provide the titles of the manuals, a translation of the zeroing procedure with bayonet fixed and perhaps a scanned picture of the illustrations? That would really be helpful. For the M91/30 you might read the zeroing procedure for the iron sights (it is the same on the standard M91/30) in this manual as it has already been translated from the Soviet original published for Russian soldiers, and probably other combloc soldiers,in 1954 by The Ministry Of Defense of the USSR.

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    Larry Gibson

  7. #67
    Boolit Master
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    Excellent thread for many reasons!

    Josh, was your original stated goal to duplicate the ballistics of the old Round nose cartridge, prior to the 1906 light ball spitzer loading? Just wondering.

  8. #68
    Mosin Guy/Forum Sponsor Josh Smith's Avatar
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    It Ken, yes sir, that's correct. I've been thinking about knocking off the 91/30 rear sight and using the long, heavy round nose bullet on one of them. Arshini not struck, if I can find one.

    Larry, I'm not ignoring you. I'd composed a response on my phone, then brushed the touch screen and lost it. I've been busy and have been trying to find time to reply using the computer. Maybe this weekend.

    Regards,

    Josh

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  9. #69
    Mosin Guy/Forum Sponsor Josh Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by james6600 View Post
    Why does Josh Smith live in Wabatucky and I live across the county line south of LaFontain ( pronounced La-Fountain ) yet I have heard of no such critter by that name?
    Hello,

    Offer stands if you see this in time. I'm making some time for myself this weekend to either shoot or bass fish.

    If you'd like to try some of my products, my favorite Mosin is equipped with my two-stage bearing trigger, my Classic Target sight, shims and pillars, and fitted ejector. I have plenty of light ball-style handloads.

    My only stipulation is that you help police up brass from the 45s.

    Regards,

    Josh

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  10. #70
    Boolit Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    Absolutely no problem Josh, didn't figure you were ignoring me. I've been trying to track down confirmation via any official Tsarist, Soviet, other combloc or Finnish sources that the M91s were brought to zero with the bayonet fixed for probably 25+ years. I have not been able to find any official source. Thus if you have found one I certainly would like to know of it. It's been a quest of mine to track it down if it exists for quite a long time........so far it's been like hunting for bigfoot.....

    Larry Gibson

  11. #71
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Smith View Post
    It Ken, yes sir, that's correct. I've been thinking about knocking off the 91/30 rear sight and using the long, heavy round nose bullet on one of them. Arshini not struck, if I can find one.

    Larry, I'm not ignoring you. I'd composed a response on my phone, then brushed the touch screen and lost it. I've been busy and have been trying to find time to reply using the computer. Maybe this weekend.

    Regards,

    Josh
    Very Well!

    there is little for me to add after the excellent responses above other than to say that I'll be following this thread closely.

  12. #72
    Boolit Man
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    Sorry for the late reply I've been doing the spring cleaning thing. I've only been to Bass-n-Bucks once, years ago looking for recurves, I need to check it out again. I have a few toys, if there's something you're interested in let me know and if you are asking to shoot an AR I can do that too. I would like to see that 88. I sold my 09 Argentine many years ago along with my 7.7 Arisaka bring back MUM still in tack.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check