I bought a concentricity gauge, WARNING! J-word bullets ahead...

[Russel Nash]

I don't venture much out here in the regular forum. My posts are mainly down in the politics subforum.

Soooo....pardon me if this seems like spam. I am in no way associated with AccuracyOne/CTK Precision.

I had originally made my own concentricity gauge, but it was kind of a pain to use. I used 3/8ths " diameter steel slingshot ammo, a small block of steel that I drilled 4 holes in, a thinner piece of steel (to act as a stop), a magnetic base, and then a dial indicator or "total runout indicator" (or a total indicated runout gauge).

My homemade gauge was kind of a pain to use, so I splurged and bought a commercially available concentricity gauge. This one is made by Accuracy One/CTK Precision.

Here is that gauge and one of my .223 reloads/handloads:

https://youtu.be/oD5PWbfuFpY

That is about 7 thousandths to 8 thousandths (0.007" to 0.008") of runout.

As like a "control", I used a piece of factory ammo to compare against. All I had around was some Black Hills .223 55 grainers:

https://youtu.be/IBD9J943mfI

That is running a thousandth to 1.5 thousandths (0.001 to 0.0015) for runout.

I am reloading this stuff on a Dillon 650 auto indexing progressive.

I think the problem is my shellplate is not indexing properly.

Most likely I will try to re-seat the bullets.... either on my 650 or on my single stage RCBS press.

[Silverboolit]

It would be interesting to see if the LEE factory crimp die would straighten out your cartridges. Measure some that you have runout on, and then crimp them and re-check again with your runout guage.

[Russel Nash]

I am already running a LEE FCD.

What would be interesting is to run a regular charged case up into the bullet seating die to seat a bullet.... like normal.... then take it off the press and measure it for runout.

And then run it up into the Lee FCD to see if that helps or worsens the runout.

I am buying pre-processed brass, so it would suck if it is the cases I bought... how they are resized...or rather how the expander ball is pulled back through the neck or mouth.

I have another 1,000 pieces of processed Lake City brass I haven't even touched yet.

[runfiverun]

measure the run out on some of them.
I like to use 2 seating dies on the progressive presses, or turn the round as I seat in stages on the 0-frames.
the case tipping as it goes into your die on the 650 can cause some crooked.

[Russel Nash]

measure the run out on some of them.
I like to use 2 seating dies on the progressive presses, or turn the round as I seat in stages on the 0-frames.
the case tipping as it goes into your die on the 650 can cause some crooked.

The case going in slightly crooked sounds like the most plausible culprit right now.

[Russel Nash]

G. David Tubb has an old reloading video, which is now up on YouTube. He recommends spinning the case like 60 degrees and seating the bullet like 3 different times, with a 60 degree spin before each run up into the bullet seating die.

[Love Life]

A concentricity gauge will easily lead to a couple weekends of experimenting to find out how to load the most concentric ammo, lol. It all works together. The press, the dies, the components, consistency of press operation. Process of elimination will have you making concentric ammo soon.

[troyboy]

Start with the processed brass.

[flashhole]

Dude you really need to go back to basics. Your runout is terrible. Do you have a single stage press?

[JohnH]

I'm curious what you are shooting this ammo in, what your groups have been in past, were they good then got bad can some change in groups be traced back to when life on the 650 began or do you have nothing better to do than make yourself crazy Seriously, is the blammo is being burned off in an AR for fun, or is it being run through a high grade or custom target rifle

[bullet maker 57]

I have the same gauge. I would move the rollers back a little more from the datum point. Try lessening the crimp. Just some thoughts.

[M-Tecs]

I load 99% of my ammo on 650's or 1050's. Using the 650's or 1050's I can get the runout to equal to the best single stations. Start by isolating were your runout issue is coming from. Check your cases before you size than after sizing than again when you seat the bullet.

[Smk SHoe]

Or, you can make sure they are all out of round the same amount, Find the high spot of each and put a dot TDC, with a sharpie and insure when you chamber them the dot is in the same spot. ( kinda poking fun But) Had a friend I shot with that put a nick on the rim of his bench ammo with a diamond file before his first load. Any and all processing, measuring, shooting was keyed off that point. Kinda extreme, but he did shoot some amazing groups.

[Russel Nash]

Start with the processed brass.

WINNER! WINNER! CHICKEN DINNER!

Troyboy got it!

I figured it out last night.

I took one case out of my brass processor's packaging. I put it in the concentricity gauge, then gingerly slid the dial indicator down a bit so the "stylus" would be riding on the outside of the case neck. Then using the threaded adjuster, I lowered the "stylus" down onto the brass.

Sure enough! The brass was out of round by the same 7 to 8 thou.

Then I grabbed 3 or 4 more empty cases. The majority of them were running 7 to 8 thou. I might have had one that was 3 or 4 thou.

I removed my one toolhead out of the 650. Then I inserted my one dedicated toolhead which only has the RCBS X-sizer die in it.

I ran those 4 or 5 pieces of brass through the X die. Then I tried them in the concentricity gauge again.

The runout had dropped to 2 thou or less.

WOOO! HOOOO!

So now I have at least 995 pieces of "processed" Lake City brass that I have to run back through my X-die to straighten out the necks.

Thanks for all the replies everybody!

[OS OK]

Just for giggles...measure the case wall thickness at about 3 different points at the neck too. I too went through all these checks when I got my concentricity gage.
Some things we take for granted are just not the facts.

Careful though, this may drive you into the 'bench shooters' class......the way some of us ole brass stuffers pay attention to detail is nothing compared to the benchers!

[Russel Nash]

Some Black Hills ammo 55 grainers was like my control group:



The gap between the post it notes is just over an inch. If it wasn't for that one flyer, if I had just made it a 5 shot group, then they would be 1MOA or less. So that gives you an idea of what my FrankenAR and I, together, are capable of, off a bench.

My reloads with this processed brass looked like this:




And then using the uber expensive Sierra Match King bullets (SMK's):





The SMK's...I was buying from Cabela's.

I want say a 500 count box of the 69 grain SMK's is like $119.99 plus tax.

The 77 gr SMKs are like $139.99 plus tax for a box of 500.

So like 26 to 30 cents each.

If I am paying that much for a projectile that has that reputation, it better be putting up 1 MOA groups or less.

[OS OK]

Don't forget that you can adjust the powder charge in very small increments up and down to find out if you are shooting off the barrel node.
Your top target looks like a 'right hand shooters' push on the trigger instead of a pull.
Anytime you can document a flyer as your input being the cause, you can throw it out of the group analysis.

There are so many subtle variables in cast loading/shooting it can be very interesting trying to nail them down as causes.

[Russel Nash]

Yes sir! Now that I have my concentricity issue solved, once I correct the brass, it will be worth it to do an Optimal Charge Weight (OCW) or ladder test with my reloads, especially the better quality SMK's.

[Russel Nash]

I am sure we have all seen enough NFL football on TV....

I am just picturing the 500 or so reloads slinging their bullets like some "wounded duck" football pass instead of the nice tight Joe Montana spiral.

Arggh...

I guess that will be my "blammo" or blasting ammo.

My only consolation is even with the screwed up case necks my handloads still grouped better than the XM855 and XM193 "factory ammo" that I tried:





How our troops can actually qualify or pass a course, I'll never know.

What poopy ammo!

[dverna]

Nice job determining the problem.

I have never shot mil-surp, but from what I have read, your results are fairly common. The stuff is not very good. I was going to buy some mil-surp bullets for blasting ammo but one of the Vendor Sponsors had 55 gr Hornady SP on sale last fall and I got 6000.