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Thread: Winchester 1890 conversion project.

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
    Chev. William's Avatar
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    Winchester 1890 conversion project.

    My current "Putter Project" is a type 3 Winchester 1890 conversion to Center fire and .25ACP cartridge use.
    The 'donor' is a hodge-podge of used parts mostly purchased off Ebay over Months.

    I first bought a Front housing, a Stripped Bolt, and a used Firing pin with spring to see if the rifle would lend itself to such a conversion. Machined an Aluminum Alloy slug to fit the Barrel spigot threads and center drilled it to guide a 3/16" Transfer punch concentric with the intended barrel bore.
    The transfer punch marked the Bolt Body where the CF firing Pin Tip would need to appear. Inspecting the Bolt Face it seemed the Tip was close enough to the Center of the Original firing pin body to be feasible, so the original tip hole was filled with a steel rivet, the existing tip ground off the Firing pin, and a 5/64" hole was drilled in the bolt face and supported Firing Pin body with the Bolt held aligned in a Machinist vise.
    Success!
    The hole in the Firing Pin end was clear of the side wall so a 5/64"x1/2" Dowel Pin was Pressed into the Firing Pin body hole; then tried in the Bolt body. It fit but too tight for proper use so the Bolt face hole was opened out one Number Size to give a little clearance.
    Now the Extended new 'tip' was way too long so it was rough trimmed using a 'Dremel' thin abrasive Cut Off Wheel.
    The 'dowel' Firing Pin Tip is still slightly too long but will be left as is until final fitting time.

    Next is the Magazine; a Replacement ".22WRF" magazine tube set (inner and outer) was purchased and a .25ACP cartridge tried in both tubes. The Cartridge would clear the constriction holding the spring follower in it, Great! the Loading port in the Side of the outer tube was long enough but needed widening to clear the Cartridge's larger Bullet, Body, and Rim diameters. The 'Dremel' was used again.

    A Winchester 1890 Rear, trigger, Housing complete with a 'S-L-LR' capable cartridge lifter assembly, hammer, trigger, and Springs was found and purchased off Ebay. The adjustable length take scare of the cartridge length.
    The Diameter of the Carrier "bore" will need to be opened out to fit the larger diameter of the .25ACP rim with some clearance for free movement.
    - This work is still to be done.

    Next, a Model 62 Operating Slide, Forearm Wood, Screws and Escutcheons, and a Slide Retainer Cover with screw were Purchased off Ebay, again patience wins.
    The Cover was found NOT to fit the Forward Housing dove tail due to the edges of the Screw rebate intersecting the dovetail being 'peened' down enough to block the cover entry.
    - This will be reworked later, possibly with the careful use of a cold chisel with a 60 Degree included angle edge to carefully lift the 'Peened' corners up again.

    The next major part is a Barrel; and a 'cheap' candidate was found on Ebay as a cut down '.22WRF Barrel with a Bad bore slightly longer than 20 inches overall with apparently rusty, but complete, Threads and repairable dovetail slots for sights and Magazine retainer rings. It was Purchased for $20.00 Plus shipping.
    Now I needed it fitted with a Liner (previous purchase from "Track of The Wolfe" (TOTW) a couple of years earlier. it is a .25ACP sized (.250" Groove/.243"+ bore) 1:14 inch twist 6 land/groove 'hammer forged' reportedly made by T.J.s Liners for TOTW.
    John Taylor (Taylor Machine of Puyallup, WA was contacted and Agreed to do the Liner installation. In the 'excitement' of packaging the Liner and donor barrel for shipment I accidentally sent the wrong barrel soo I had to send the correct donor barrel in a following mailing. John agreed to also get another T.J.'s Liner for .25ACP and line BOTH donor barrels.

    I now have the two back vary beautifully lined and awaiting final work, such as Chambers and extractor cuts to be done later. John did chase the threads on the Winchester Barrel so they are clean and screwed smoothly into the front Housing nicely.
    THANK YOU, John Taylor!
    - Still to be done: order a REVOLVER style .25ACP Finish Chamber Reamer, with replaceable pilot bushings, to cut the chamber as a parallel Straight walled one.
    I have found, to my sorrow, that a 'Standard .25ACP Semi-Auto" chamber's taper allows the Case Body ahead of the Case Web to 'bulge' in a ring on fired cartridges. Not Good for Long Case life in Reloading.

    From previously purchased items, I have both Buttstock and Buttplate to use on this 'Putter Project'.

    Now to wait 'Patiently' for money to order the reamer and for it to be made.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    .25ACP ammunition planned for use in the "Putter Project" 1890 will range from .35 grain JHP Factory, through 50 grain FMJ-RN Factory to 63 groan or heavier Hand Loads with propellant charges worked up for greater performance within the 'Carbine's capabilities' which al;ready exceed the Stubby 2" long Factory Ammo Test Barrel length.

    Preliminary Ammunition development done in a Ruger Single Eight with a 10-5/8" long barrel range up to 1.89 Grains of Bullseye Propellant behind 63 grain Lead FN Bullets and some 3.0 grain of BE-86 behind the same 63 Grain Lead FN bullet at an OAL of .905".

    There IS potential in this small Cartridge that has NOT been fully explored.
    I may even try some heavier, sized down, Jacketed bullets up to 120 grains.

    Some things to think about.
    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  3. #3
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    That would be a fun gun. I keep debating building a single shot 25 acp myself.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Do "Go for It!" you wil enjoy the Project and its use when completed.
    Remember to NOT use a 'standard .25 ACP Semi-Auto tapered Chamber" though, As I found out in my Ruger single Eight, that yields Bulged Ring Cases and makes reloading them a chore.
    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Chev. William,

    You come up with some of the neatest projects. This one sounds like a winner.

    Robert

  6. #6
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  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Studying the ~20" Winchester 1890 Lined barrel I find that the Magazine ring dovetail cuts are both Shallow and too small for the set of Magazine rings I have to rotate into and hold so they will need to be re-cut by a Gunsmith with a good Machine in his shop.

    Further, I cannot work the Extractor cut on to the Lip of the Liner until I have cut the chamber so that is another bit of work on hold waiting for money to order the reamer(s). Luckily, it appears that the remaining original extractor cut can be used as a 'Filing guide' for the work.

    I may think of "Draw Filing" the Barrel exterior to smooth out some of the 'dings' visible from its about 100 years of use history; then fine sand it and have it refinished in a Satin Finish Blue-Black.
    More thinking to do on this idea as it would also need to be done to the Front Housing, Bolt Body, and Trigger Housing so they would all match. The Trigger, Firing Pin, and Hammer could be finished separately and in a contrasting, or Complementary, finish and look good.
    Another thing to consider is if I should have the front housing Case Hardened for added wear resistance. This would need to be done before the finish treatment is applied.

    This month's 'extra money' is going into repairs to my vehicle(s):
    - My 'work truck', a 1986 Dodge RAM50 Custom, needed a new Brake booster installed so there went $407 already.
    - My 2006 Dodge Dakota also has a "check engine" light and it seems the transmission control system is malfunctioning as it is in 'Limp home' driving mode.

    On line I found a reference to a possible corrosion problem in the connector pair at the transmission end of the Electronic Control Cable but it will need to wait a while until I get some more 'spending money'.

    I am waiting for a set of three custom ordered case sizing dies from Lee Precision that are already about two weeks overdue and are Prepaid from when I ordered them ( ordered 1-12-2017, confirmed 1-17-2017).
    - One is a .32 Long die that is undersize to act as a 'first stage' Swaging die to reduce S&W family cases down to Colt family diameter, hoping to reduce the Force needed in my current process.
    - The other is 'opened' .25ACP carbide ring sizing dies at .288" diameter nominal as swaging intermediate Stage dies for reducing the body diameter of 5.7x28mm cases down to .276" diameter of .25ACP and .25 Stevens.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 04-16-2017 at 01:25 PM.

  8. #8
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    This is very interesting. Best of luck on your project. Two things;
    1. Do you think the fmj might detonate the primer it rests on in the tube?
    2. Get a Ford. Or Chevy. Sorry-couldn't resist........
    Best, Thomas.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas by God View Post
    This is very interesting. Best of luck on your project. Two things;
    1. Do you think the fmj might detonate the primer it rests on in the tube?
    2. Get a Ford. Or Chevy. Sorry-couldn't resist........
    Best, Thomas.
    !. ".25ACP 50 Grain FMJ-RN", I do not think so As I believe The Nose Radius is large enough to not crush the Primer in a tube magazine.
    "63 grain Lead FN" definitely Not as the Flat nose 'Meplat' is larger in diameter than the Primer cup.

    2. Neither Ford nor Chevy currently make a Compact truck in the dimensions nor carry capacity of my 1986 Ram50 pickup, which is why I hunted it out in the First Place. A one short ton cargo capacity in a vehicle narrow and short enough to fit into Compact parking places is its Salient Benefits for me. This one has a 2.4 Liter Four cylinder engine ahead of a Five Speed Manual transmission (fifth is an Overdrive) That still gives me 15MPG to 18MPG loaded on the Road and 21MPG light. I have a all metal Shell With Tinted Windows on the Bed so I can lock up my tools and Materials.

    The Dakota is a 4.7 liter, FWD Quad Cab 'SLT" type that is Very Comfortable to drive.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 04-06-2017 at 05:54 PM.

  10. #10
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    I well understand having to wait for spendable money, sometimes real life gets in the way of fun projects.

    Those little Mitsubishi/ Dodge D-50's were good little trucks, I wouldn't mind having one of them myself.

    Robert

  11. #11
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    I was teasing about the trucks! Your model 90 will be eagerly awaited. Keep us posted!

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    That is why I answered the questions. i Pulled Back.
    Seriously, the Ram50 was purchased from a private Owner who bought it as a "Project" at a Lien Sale Auction. It had been Impounded adn confiscated from the Unlicensed Driver as illegal on the Road since it had not been Registered for 16 months at the time. I bought it for $846 and i ttook an additional $315 to get it home form Sacramento, CA to Sun Valley, CA. Getting it Smoged and Registered took another ~$2000 then Repairs began; about $6000 later I had a running truck with shell, good Brakes, Steering, and Drive Train. Another $200 got the interior redone in 'Stock' patterns and condition except I had the Roof insulated and a head-Liner put in extra. A good friend and i insulated the Shell to hold down the Temperature in it when closed. It still has a dented Front fender and the original hood with its internal brace panel loose. Later I applied an aftermarket thin Trim soft molding on the Belt line ridge to protect the sides from 'Cart' and Door bumps and dings. The original, wider, molding is still on it lower down.
    AC works likk a 'Champ' but my Radio/Casette player has problems with the AM side.
    I have a small Solar Panel in the windshield to keep the battery up between Drives.
    Longest Work drive was a 225 mile Commute for two months, four days a week at 10 hour work day. made for LONG total day.
    Now the Work drives run up to 43 miles one way. but that is not often any more.
    Typical is about 10-12 miles now.
    As you may be able to tell I do like the truck for my work use vary much.
    My late wife did not like it, so that is why I have the Dakota.

    Chortling,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 04-06-2017 at 05:56 PM.

  13. #13
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    I understand. My daily 90 mile round trip is handled by a 2006 Ranger V6 and every thing else by the 2002 Silverado 4x4 farm truck. Of course our traffic realities are WAY different.
    Best, Thomas.
    Small trucks are in demand here as well. Mine has pulled some amazing loads.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Re:electrical problem.Might try using some spray contact cleaner from your favorite electronic parts store.Then put some dielectric grease in the connector and give it a try.Just might save a bucket of bucks.Your project sounds like fun.
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
    le
    People never lie so much as after a hunt,during a war,or before an election.
    Otto von Bismarck

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    A Loan from some friends is helping to pay for the Dodge dealer doing the diagnostic and repair on my Dakota transmission.
    They confirmed that it is in need of a 'transmission Control Solenoid Assembly' replacement, assuring me that the 'corrosion service letter' is not involved. the Work will include new Transmission Filters (2 of them), replacing the sump pan seal(s) and new Fluid, Engine Oil change and Engine Oil filter; for an estimated $1260.
    At 69,000 plus miles on the Truck, it seems reasonable to replace filter and fluid.

    Hopefully there will be no more "problems" for at least a year or two.

    Other 'expenses' this month are a Vet. bill for my two dogs and the annual renewal of their County Licenses.

    On the Winchester 1890 conversion; I hand tightened the Lined Barrel into the Front housing and found it stopped just past upside down (the Magazine ring dovetails face top) so it will need to be 'clocked' correctly also.

    Added to my Parts collection with a Type 2 Front housing and a Trigger housing with a 1xx,xxx serial number. Another future project as i had a complete Type 2 bolt assembly already.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

    PS added: Total was over $1290 on the Dakota. The dealer Also 'flashed two Modules Programs and did a Safety Recall replacement of my Passenger Airbag and verification of the complete "Passive Restraint Systems". Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 04-16-2017 at 01:31 PM. Reason: corrected typos.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    I have my Dodge Dakota Back; the Transmission Control solenoid assembly had an open solenoid coil in it. They also Flashed two Computers to correct software problems, Forcibly removed my Solar Cell and HUD from the dashboard and Replaced the Passenger Air Bag inflater(s) due to a Safety Recall, Drove it 6 miles to verify the Fix and took about a week to complete the work.

    Now I have to Reprogram the Radio as all the presets have been wiped out.
    The HUD and the Solar Cell Panel are back in place but the Solar Cell Panel is slightly loose now and occasionally rattles against the Windshield.

    Forecast Rain overnight with sprinkles Tomorrow morning. Norther California is forecast to get between 3 and 4 feet of Rain or Snow in this storm, They will LOVE the American River tributaries that have been returned to "Natural Wild State" by removing Flood Control and Irrigation dams on them over the last few Decades. More Very high Flow rates expected like the ones that damaged Oriville Dam Spillways.

    Perhaps the "Delta Smelt" will all be flushed out of the Delta area and on into the Ocean outside S.F. Bay. That little fish is allocated about 80 percent of the California freshwater to 'protect their environment from Salt Water Incursion. the remaining 20 percent is allocated between Farmers and Cities, with Drought restrictions on that 20 percent, NOT the other 80 percent.

    No change in Drought restrictions is contemplated although the Governor announce the Drought is officially over.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Saying the Drought is officially over is a major step for Moonbeam. When I was living in California, no crisis was ever "over." The mantra was always "There is still Much More work to be done."

    Best of luck.

  18. #18
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    I was still riding tin cans out of San Diego when my brother moved to Camarillo around 1991 or so. I was visiting him when there was a rain storm that dumped an inch or two and one of the politicians said "The drought is over."

    We both got a good laugh out of that, one rain storm does not end a multi year drought.

    California would be a nice place, if it wasn't for all the idiots that outnumber the people with common sense.

    Robert

  19. #19
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    Re: Gov. "Moonbeam" Statement: I have been Living in California all my life, except for my Navy Active Duty time, and I know he is duplicitous in his public statements.

    Chev. Willaim

  20. #20
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    Lately, I have been watching Ebay for specific Winchester 1890 parts and finally Scored a Type 2 Front Housing and a 1xx,xxx serial number Trigger Housing to go with a Type 2 Bolt assembly I purchased a while back.

    Upon receiving the Front housing and trying my bolt assembly in it I found that the two Sides are "Torqued" so one is slightly higher than the other but both are close to parallel. The difference at the rear ends is about 1/2 the Slot height for the Bolt rails, more than sufficient to cause Binding and jamming of the Bolt if tried correct way around. Upside down and Reversed it will enter the slots with drag.

    The NEW Project is to Save this Front Housing without causing further damage nor destroying it for use.

    The Type 2 design has bolt lugs that DO NOT Penetrate the Housing sides.
    This gives the Type 2 a smoother Side presentation, perhaps slightly less Strength in Lockup in Battery than the type 3 design. As type 2 was offered in .22WRF it still is of adequate strength for Modern ammo.

    My desire is to restore this to a functional action and Firearm.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check