An interesting 16ga double for sale with lots of pictures

[corbinace]

This is at my LGS, but he has it on GB. It is just really cool looking I think. I think I have about worn the pictures out looking at it. Unfortunately, I am trying not to buy it. I did bid on it but I got passed up, and I can't figure out a way to justify owning it to myself.

Check it out. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/628712475

Does a double have removable breach plugs? I looks like different metal.

[sharps4590]

From what I understand they aren't removable unless the barrels are un-soldered and yes, they are of different material from the Damascus barrels. Pretty nice looking old double ML and in the "proper" bore size. Thank you for posting it.

[StolzerandSons]

It's a little hard to see in the pictures on gunbroker BUT you can see the seam between the two breechplugs. Made properly like this one you remove the round breechplug first then you remove the breechplug that is shaped to match the ribs. You shouldn't ever have to un-solder the barrels on a properly made double rifle or shotgun.


You can go to my youtube channel(link in my signature) and see video of how a muzzleloading double rifle is made from start to finish including how the breechs are made and fit together.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That is a beautiful gun, and while it may well have been entirely made in Belgium, it is very similar in style to one I have, which was made with Belgian provisionally proofed tubes by Kehlner neveu (i.e. nephew of the better-known Kehlner) in Prague. The horn grip is usually a German or Austrian feature. By some freak of chance the auction I bought it on has remained preserved for nearly fifteen years:

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/3231386

It turned out to be 14ga (which I much preferred) rather than 10ga, and yours is actually about 18. As well as rather stout barrel walls and a set trigger, the round patchbox and a knob to screw onto the end of the ramrod were a giveaway that it was intended as a ball gun, and probably for something a shade smaller than 14ga. So I lined it with rifled liners from Track of the Wolf. The gold R monogram above the grip has a crown with seven pearls, making it a baron's. But barons were pretty small-time aristocracy as far as the German and Austro-Hungarian Empires were concerned. Any son of a baron was a baron, while in Britain and France it was only inherited by the eldest on the father's death. The engraved European roe deer are extremely accurate, African antelope less so, and a leopard extremely fancifully. They didn't get to see them in photographs in those days.

Yours may have been intended exclusively a shotgun. But it is worth trying to push the right-barrel trigger forwards to see if a set trigger engages. There would probably only be one, as you don't want a full-auto double gun. At least one barrel should have a cylindrical breechplug which you unscrew by means of the tenon for the stock tang. The other barrel may be similar, or integral with the complete breech fitting like that of many single guns. The proofmark tells me only that it is pre-1893, when the oval ELG acquired a crown. That was virtually certain anyway for a gun of this quality, although they made cheap trade guns, often even flintlocks, until much later.

[swathdiver]

...and I can't figure out a way to justify owning it to myself.

Ahh the old buy on emotion, justify with logic internal debate! How many Belgian doubles in 16 gauge do you have? How about your neighbor? It's a nice size between 12 and 20 and if it's a shooter, why not? If you don't like it, you can always sell it.

[OverMax]

Good example of old world gunsmithing. Yep a sweet sixteen for-sure.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That is a beautiful gun, and while it may well have been entirely made in Belgium, it is very similar in style to one I have, which was made with Belgian provisionally proofed tubes by Kehlner neveu (i.e. nephew of the better-known Kehlner) of Prague, then in Austro-Hungary. The horn grip is usually a German or Austrian feature. By some freak of chance the auction I bought it on has remained preserved for nearly fifteen years:

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/3231386

It turned out to be 14ga (which I much preferred) rather than 10ga, and yours is actually about 18 - a very useful size, when you don't have to find cartridges. As well as rather stout barrel walls and a set trigger, the round patchbox and a knob to screw onto the end of the ramrod were a giveaway that mine was intended as a ball gun, and probably for something a shade smaller than 14ga. So I lined it with rifled liners from Track of the Wolf. The gold R monogram above the grip has a crown with seven pearls, making it a baron's. But barons were pretty small-time aristocracy as far as the German and Austro-Hungarian Empires were concerned. Any son of a baron was a baron even during his father's lifetime, while in Britain and France it was only inherited by the eldest. The engraved European roe deer are extremely accurate, African antelope less so, and a leopard extremely fancifully. They didn't get to see them in photographs in those days.

Yours may have been intended exclusively a shotgun. But it is worth trying to push the right-barrel trigger forwards to see if a set trigger engages. There would probably only be one, as you don't want a full-auto double gun. At least one barrel should have a cylindrical breechplug which you unscrew by means of the tenon for the stock tang. The other barrel may be similar, or integral with the complete breech fitting like that of many single guns. The proofmark tells me only that it is pre-1893, when the oval ELG acquired a crown. That was virtually certain anyway for a gun of this quality, although they made cheap trade muzzle-loaders, often even flintlocks, until much later.

[waksupi]

Sad to see the cracked wrist on it, all too common with older doubles. We were looking at an English .500 Express double rifle Gary James had at our shoot a couple weeks ago. Very delicate wrist, and surprising it has stood up over the years.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Beautiful. Love the look of the half round half octagon double barrels.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BPJONES]

Nice gun. Looks like it hasn't seen a terribly lot of shooting over the years.

[corbinace]

I am going to go today and try to fondle this piece. You had collectively convinced me to bid again, but I now see a familiar handle bidding and will not bid against a friend. That said, if there are any questions that I may be able to answer about this particular piece, shoot me a PM and I will try to get an answer for you.

[pietro]

.

Except for the friend thing, IDK why you're hesitating - IMO, that gun's easily worth $500, with the quality of workmansip/adornment like that one has.

Maybe the GS owner (not some clerk) will accept a cash-on-the-table (not a spoken offer) of $400 or $450 for it.

.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I am going to go today and try to fondle this piece. You had collectively convinced me to bid again, but I now see a familiar handle bidding and will not bid against a friend. That said, if there are any questions that I may be able to answer about this particular piece, shoot me a PM and I will try to get an answer for you.

If you are referring to seeing my handle over at gunbroker feel free to bid against me. No hard feelings, it is after all an auction. It's a beautiful shotgun and the seller deserves the most out of the auction.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BPJONES]

I wonder if that is actually a crack in the wrist or just a couple of deeper marks/gouges? It doesn't appear to go through to the other side.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, it is a pity about the crack, but it looks old and hasn't resulted in failure, so I don't think it is much weakening. If you can get unwaxed dental floss into it, you could probably work out some dirt with alcohol, and clamp it tight with a rubber tubing bandage after you glue it. I would say superglue if you can get the surfaces really close, since it will work down into the crack by capillary action, or epoxy coloured with brown accraglas dye from Brownells if you can't.

[sharps4590]

I have to stand corrected about the breech plugs. I truly didn't know what Stolzer posted. Thank you for adding to my limited knowledge. An old dog can learn new tricks...just takes longer!!!!

I too looked at that....whatever it is at the wrist. It could be a crack but boy...the more I looked at it the more I thought it a deep scratch. 'Course I was wrong about the breech plugs so that shows how observant I sometimes am....

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It could indeed be a deep scratch, or a crack which has been glued at the time when it appeared, which is the best time to do it. It might furnish an argument in the bargaining process.

[John Allen]

She is pretty but with a cracked wrist I do not know if I would want to shoot it without some support.

[KCSO]

Addendum on the breech plugs, You will need a well fitted wrench and it will take a week or more of soaking in Ed's Red to get them loose. If the bores look OK I would proof fire it and then quit there. The nipples when removed will give you a good idea of rust penetration.

[corbinace]

I can shed a bit of light on the crack question now. It is indeed a crack. That said it is very old and does not appear to be in any risk of becoming worse. It looks much worse in the pictures than in your hand. The short line that goes across appears to be the back end of a chip that came out at one time. It is very well re-secured and does not catch on your hand, laying down smoothly. The lock plates are nicely inletted and showing no pressure points. Not sure what made this break here but it was long ago. I was really amazed at how tight this piece was, I was expecting to feel some amount of looseness in the forearm or maybe the hammers.

As to the bores, they are approximately .637-.639" (I was not holding the calipers), so BIS is pretty spot on with 18ga.

The triggers to the best of my limited knowledge are not of the set type, but rather just a normal sear for this lock.

The arm is surprisingly light.

It was fun to handle it and it really felt nice on my shoulder. Not an overly long LOP, though I did not measure it.