Regarding . > . 'Hollow Points' . < . details

[yondering]

Sub sonic sounds like it needs to be heavy and plow through like a freight train.
Trying to use a HP subsonic will be challenged to blow through a deer...possibly some RNFP of a softer Pb blend might mushroom a small amount and help deliver greater shock to the inner organs but...you still need a hole on both sides for bleed out so you can track it.

No, and no.

It's not difficult at all to have an expanding subsonic rifle bullet fully penetrate deer. I believe I have posted some of my thoughts and experiences with that in several of your hollow point threads. You can achieve a larger wound channel and still retain full penetration through the shoulders with a properly designed hollow point. You are right that it does require weight.

Subsonic RNFP bullets of even pure lead do not reliably expand, unless hitting bone. It's easy to achieve with a hollow point, much more difficult with a soft solid nose.

[OS OK]

That alloy seems soft enough, what BHN 11?
I would test it in watersoaked wetpack. Of all the stuff we try to test in I think the dirt berm is the least effective for judging how it would behave in flesh and bone.
I haven't done this yet but I want to try shreaded paper wetted and tamped with a 4x4 tightly in a plastic bucket. Seems like I could adjust the water content somewhat by how densly I pack the shreaded paper. I'm thinking it will show a cavity but at 2K FPS I don't think the depth of a single bucket would stop the round. Maybe cut the bottom out of a few buckets so they will stack concentric and stand taller and hold more paper.
I dunnoh yet...haven't had time yet to do this.
Shreaded paper could be left in the bucket, on its side to drain and dry and used again...dunnoh that either? I don't have access to gobs of phone books and don't want to deal with the mess they would cause.
Did you say you were PC'ing these casts?

[OS OK]

No, and no.

It's not difficult at all to have an expanding subsonic rifle bullet fully penetrate deer. I believe I have posted some of my thoughts and experiences with that in several of your hollow point threads. You can achieve a larger wound channel and still retain full penetration through the shoulders with a properly designed hollow point. You are right that it does require weight.

Subsonic RNFP bullets of even pure lead do not reliably expand, unless hitting bone. It's easy to achieve with a hollow point, much more difficult with a soft solid nose.

What do you suggest for this fella I'm talking to right now?

[Traffer]

Could you elaborate a little on that. I am not quite sure I understand what you mean.

Might be dissapointed too. Expand to fit is a hard thing too.

[yondering]

What do you suggest for this fella I'm talking to right now?

My bullet I'm experimenting with in the Blackout is the NOE 247, but it actually weight about 230 with the hollow point. I tried casting some from pure lead but couldn't get them to group well at all. They shoot OK from 96-2-2 and the ones I have found in the berm mushroom and/or bend their noses. I may shoot some water jugs and see what happens.

The hollow point NOE provides with that mold is too small for subsonic expansion, you are right to be concerned about penciling through. (I believe they've redesigned it in the latest run, but I'm guessing that's not what you have.) Your comment about reduced accuracy with soft alloys mirrors mine; I'm using the 300 in the AR15 platform, and accuracy is much better with a ww alloy around ~10 bhn or so than with soft lead. I made a larger set of pins for that bullet for a member on the 300 Blktalk forum (user name bangbangping if you want to ask him about it); I sized the pins for good expansion with coww equivalent and to drop easily from the mold.

In this application, for deer hunting, it's better to have too much expansion than not enough, but also make sure the remaining bullet shank is heavy enough to continue through the animal if the nose fragments off. My best subsonic/suppressed hunting bullet performance on deer has been when the nose fragments off in the chest cavity, causing significantly more organ damage, and the base passes on through the far shoulder. The main wound track is generally about golf ball size through the vital organs, with some smaller tracks as fragments move out laterally, and the shank pretty much makes a pencil hole through the far shoulder bone. As a rough rule of thumb, I want the remaining shank to be ~2/3 the original bullet weight. Performance wise, that gives you essentially a subsonic Nosler Partition.

I will also say that good subsonic hunting bullet performance is a lot easier to achieve in a 35 caliber than in a 30 caliber or smaller. That is what led me to build a big brother to the Blackout in .358 bore, also in the AR15 platform.

Larger hollow point in NOE 247 for better expansion:

[OS OK]

Yondering, that's awesome looking. I don't run any AR's so I'm not familiar with the various calibers...what do you call that one?

If this fella can't move up to that barrel, mold and new dies, brass and all that encumbers...what do you suggest he do as he is outfitted?

One other question too...weren't you the one who got me to plug the HP's with silicone or such? Do you run these that way?

[44man]

I made a mistake with my 45-70 revolver many times. I was poking holes and losing deer with no blood trails to follow. With one I found blood at over 100 yards and it was over another 100 when I found her. I figure over 250 yards to dead or more. I changed to a 50-50 HP that Babore sent me. 420 gr oven hardened. I hit behind the shoulder and the angle of the deer had the boolit exit the off shoulder, there was nothing left to it. The whole shoulder pulled off with the skin. I did not expect that from a revolver so what would happen with a faster rifle?
The picture I showed was from a revolver too. That boolit did not stop and had full penetration.
My best killer is a hard boolit in the .475 and .44. I like water jug shooting and want the first 3 or 4 to blow up but the boolit must not be stopped, the .475 blew 4, split no 5 and went through 17 jugs. I speed the earths spin from boolits going through deer!
I fully believe in energy transfer at the right place but also full penetration. I lost confidence in just a larger meplat and a WLN or Keith is all needed. I found a very large meplat has a pressure wave that moves tissue out of the boolit path and away from energy. I found no advantage in making the meplat larger and some nose expansion is better. Too much is no good. Tests in the field go on and I have been close with my guns but it is a small window to get it right.
Is there a place for a HP? Sure, but I can't utilize it with what I shoot. You need to observe your results.
Some show massive HP's but don't know about results on game. Most is a feeling about expectations. I admit to holding my head at the bench to imagine what happens in the gun and game. It has lead me to accuracy with revolvers nobody has matched. But on game can only be realized by killing. Toughest road I ever traveled.

[OS OK]

I was hoping to get this thread going about the mechanics of the HP's. Hoping to entice folks to enter here what they have done, what they have assembled, the Pb blends, velocities, cal.'s, barrel lengths and all that sort of stuff...listed in pictures of the results, like above...but too, all the information of what 'is' and 'is not' working.
I've found that over the years if I pay attention to what doesn't work, then I don't need to go there and it also explains...or connects the dots about things I sit at the bench and scratch my head over.

We know that HP's work in a narrow band of all the above variables...let's try to discover the techniques of adjusting the variables to get something we can use.
Also try to develope a method of testing in artificial media, (and what media would that be that everyone could get ahold of and use...I don't mean expensive Gel's) a media that would as close as possible mimick the animals bone and flesh enough so that we can extrapolate from there and not get into another long discussion and argument over FBI standards and all that.

EDIT...A very interesting and broad testing program is being undertaken by . . . https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-M...hm02hMxIIY-b0w . . . 'Loads of Bacon' his Y-Tube site. Many combinations of Pb blends, PC coated and eventually all will be shot into GEL...love to see the GEL test conducted on HP's.

[NoAngel]

I prefer large meplats to hollow points. Even the best hollow points do not expand the same, every time. The largest meplat I can get, that will give me reliable function & accuracy is what I am looking for.

[Elkins45]

The hollow point NOE provides with that mold is too small for subsonic expansion, you are right to be concerned about penciling through. (I believe they've redesigned it in the latest run, but I'm guessing that's not what you have.) Your comment about reduced accuracy with soft alloys mirrors mine; I'm using the 300 in the AR15 platform, and accuracy is much better with a ww alloy around ~10 bhn or so than with soft lead. I made a larger set of pins for that bullet for a member on the 300 Blktalk forum (user name bangbangping if you want to ask him about it); I sized the pins for good expansion with coww equivalent and to drop easily from the mold.

In this application, for deer hunting, it's better to have too much expansion than not enough, but also make sure the remaining bullet shank is heavy enough to continue through the animal if the nose fragments off. My best subsonic/suppressed hunting bullet performance on deer has been when the nose fragments off in the chest cavity, causing significantly more organ damage, and the base passes on through the far shoulder. The main wound track is generally about golf ball size through the vital organs, with some smaller tracks as fragments move out laterally, and the shank pretty much makes a pencil hole through the far shoulder bone. As a rough rule of thumb, I want the remaining shank to be ~2/3 the original bullet weight. Performance wise, that gives you essentially a subsonic Nosler Partition.

I will also say that good subsonic hunting bullet performance is a lot easier to achieve in a 35 caliber than in a 30 caliber or smaller. That is what led me to build a big brother to the Blackout in .358 bore, also in the AR15 platform.

Larger hollow point in NOE 247 for better expansion:

Yes, mine was one of, if not the very first one. I think I'm the person who talked him into offering an RG version of that mold. I like that big pin of yours. I have the cup point pins but I haven't tried them. I can't remember if that mold came with blank pins or not, but if it did I may have to try that.

I prefer large meplats to hollow points. Even the best hollow points do not expand the same, every time. The largest meplat I can get, that will give me reliable function & accuracy is what I am looking for.

"Large" is relative. A 30 caliber bullet will have a small meplat even if it's a cylinder.

[USSR]

Jeez, couldn't ya have a few more selections.

Don

[Josh Smith]

When I use jacketed for defense or hunting, I use hollowpoint.

When I use cast for hunting or for defense, I use flat point.

After a heckuva lot of testing, I just can't find an appreciable difference in performance between a truncated cone soft cast and hollowpoint jacketed in .45acp. They do different types of damage, but my personal research tells me that the results are generally the same.

Small diameter rifles, like the 7.62x54r, need hollowpoints to work acceptably on large game. Large diameter calibers like the .45 Colt and .45-70 are just fine with flat meplats.

These are my opinions based on testing.

Regards,

Josh

[yondering]

Yes, mine was one of, if not the very first one. I think I'm the person who talked him into offering an RG version of that mold. I like that big pin of yours. I have the cup point pins but I haven't tried them. I can't remember if that mold came with blank pins or not, but if it did I may have to try that.

"Large" is relative. A 30 caliber bullet will have a small meplat even if it's a cylinder.

That cup point is a little better than the skinny deep hollow point pin NOE sold with the mold; at least you get a little expansion although it doesn't open up very far.

Most commercial hollow points are not designed very well IMO, and it's clear from the comments here that most casters don't understand how to make hollow points work well either, or what they can do when they do work well. If you have the ability to tailor the hollow point for the application, you can make it perform exactly how you want. If some of you prefer not to use hollow points, that's fine, but no reason to clutter up the thread saying so, that's not what OS OK is looking for.

[yondering]

I was hoping to get this thread going about the mechanics of the HP's. Hoping to entice folks to enter here what they have done, what they have assembled, the Pb blends, velocities, cal.'s, barrel lengths and all that sort of stuff...listed in pictures of the results, like above...but too, all the information of what 'is' and 'is not' working.
I've found that over the years if I pay attention to what doesn't work, then I don't need to go there and it also explains...or connects the dots about things I sit at the bench and scratch my head over.

I can comment in more detail later if you want, but will offer a few points here about what works well in my experience, and what doesn't.

Hollow point shape:
- small hollow point openings operate in a narrow velocity range, large openings are more forgiving and work across a broader spectrum.
- A thick rim around the hollow point at the nose requires higher velocity to expand than a thin rim
- Depth of the hollow point controls total amount of expansion, and remaining shank. Adjust depth in most cases so that only the front 1/3 of the bullet expands (this can vary with application though).
- Progressive opening is important, and is controlled with the shape of the pin. More on this later.

Alloy:
- Pure or dead soft lead is not needed or desired for hollow points unless velocity is very low, below ~600-700 fps.
- Alloy ~10 BHN with a small amount of antimony and minimal tin works very well in a properly designed hollow point.
- If you have to use really soft lead in the nose to get expansion, your hollow point is poorly designed and could be improved.

Terminal performance:
- Maximum weight retention is not the ultimate goal, or even necessarily desirable. Very large opening hollow points with little or no fragmentation generally cause shallow penetration.
- Performance similar to a Nosler Partition is possible with cast hollow points, and in my experience causes the most trauma on medium sized game (deer). Obviously that's different than one needs for shooting cape buffalo.
- From reading these forums, there are apparently a lot of buffalo roaming the country.

[OS OK]

Thanks Yondering...your doing a yeoman's job of trying to save this thread for me.
Your post are 'exactly' what I've been asking for.
Having been brought up by a Cop in the 50-60's, HP's were a sketchy subject in his work place. Not much ever said about them other than with the .357 Magnum they go in small and come out in a fist sized hole.
As a kid I never had opportunity to hunt with them, for some reason all we ever had was a soft point .30/06 or .30-30.

Post like yours, 'to do's' and future post by others including 'not to do's' are exactly the 'empirical facts and figures' I'd like to collect here.

Like Dragnet's Joe Friday used to say..."Just the facts Mam" . . . Thank You...charlie

[Elkins45]

One general rule is that a tapering or progressive cavity shape seems more likely to both initiate and continue expansion than a straight, skinny hole. That crazy tapered pin I made for my ML bullet was absolutely explosive.

[OS OK]

That design, don't they call that 'cupped'?...that design would tend to limit how much can frag off though, guaranteeing 2/3'rds left to pass through game...right?

[BCB]

I use pure lead and I hollow-point them using my drill press...

The 311041 has performed quit well on deer at ranges from 40-70 yards from a Model '94...

The 452490 has performed quit well on deer also as well as woodchucks at 25-30 yards...

[OS OK]

I have a friend who does it on a lathe.
I've tried that with a drill press but without success. Two problems for me, (1) getting the drill bit perfectly centered (2) holding the cast without marring it or squishing it out of round.

How have you gotten around these problems?

[44man]

I understand you want to play with a HP. But with a drill press you need a fixture to hold the round with a drill size hole centered.
You can use a case trimmer to HP, Forster made one long ago. I see they still have it. You can make a cutter for any shape if you have a lathe. This is done with a loaded round, not just a boolit.
I still say you need to find where you need a HP. Under some conditions it will be an aid so you must determine that.