Spencer Carbine; a couple questions

[The Ozzman]

Howdy folks.

I have (again) opportunity to buy an original spencer carbine in the rimfire configuration.

My concerns; the bore is listed as very good, but with only faint traces of rifling. If I ever want to shoot this, would it be futile with such rifling?

In my country, the centrefire conversion breechblock are not available. I would like to have the option of shooting it one day. Would this too be futile given the non availability of the drop in centrefire breechblock? Or is it possible to modify the original rimfire breechblock?

It is is good condition, and while it will be a collector, I want the option of shooting it one day.

What say ye all?

Thanks partners
Ozz

[junkbug]

Dixie gun works used to sell special cases that had an offset hole in them for a .22 rim-fire blank. That was the primer. Then you loaded as normal with black powder.

The obvious drawback is the case must be properly oriented in the chamber to fire.

This made sense for someone who wanted to make granddaddy's heirloom go "BANG!!!" I don't know if it will be worth it for you.

The rifling is a gamble. Who knows.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Would it be possible for an individual to send you a center fire breech block ?
I think if it was a simple procedure to modify the rim fire breech to center fire it would have been done so many times. The breech block needs to be machined to receive a new shaped firing pin that offsets the firing pin point a good distance thus requiring a thick firing pin.
The new made center fire block runs about $225 shipped within the U.S. of A. Found mine used which saved $50.
Mike in Peru

[The Ozzman]

Thanks Partners, helpful tips.

missionary; that may be a possibility but I dont want to rely on it. It is becoming more and more complicated on both ends of parts shipping, particularly that this arm would be classed as an "antique" and I may not get approval for bringing in a part to convert it to something else. As you said, if it was easy I imagine it might be done a bit more. However I would think it could be done.

Thats what I am mainly looking at, can it be done.

Junkbug, those little cartridges may be an option, or something similar made locally or by me etc. Yeah the rifling is hard to tell I guess!

Will keep researching to see about the breech block....maybe it was done back in the west at some stage, to use another round.

I genuinely appreciate the time you have taken to help If anyone knows much about the breechblock mods, would be keen to hear!

[elk hunter]

If you do buy the Spencer take it to your local machinist and ask him if he can build you a new centerfire block. The hard part is getting the firing pin right, the rest is pretty straight forward machine work. Perhaps there is a drawing somewhere on the internet that would make the job easier. If not would it be legal for someone to send a picture and possible drawings to you?

As for the rifling, the barrels on old firearms are quite soft but, I can't imagine that shooting lead bullets one would wear out in less than several life times.

You didn't state which model carbine, 1860 or 1865. The 1860 unless rebarrelled or lined would be 56-56 caliber, the 1865 was 56-50. You can buy reloading dies and brass for 56-50, I'm not sure about the 56-56 but, I do know people are shooting them. Have a look here: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?board=35.0

My original model 1860 has been rebarrelled to 56-50, it doesn't like the new brass made for the reproduction guns so I have to use cut down 50-70 US brass.

[The Ozzman]

Thanks Elkhunter.

Yes I see no reason why I couldn't have plans/dimensions sent to me or whathaveyou.

I did wonder that, re; barrel wear. Maybe his definition of faint trace of rifling is different to mine? I agree and cannot see really how it would wear so much but still be called "shiny" etc?

The gentleman does not state if it is an 1860 or 1865.....I am not well versed on them, but it has no saddle ring.

I am going to hold out another 4 weeks or so, there is a big antique arms auction coming up and I have been saving for months, keen to see it they have any old west era guns. If nothing comes of the auction, I will be pursuing either the Spencer or a Vetterli 10.4mm that has a near mint bore and excellent outer.

Thanks

[The Ozzman]

Just an update. I went and checked the advertisement; it is stated that it is a .50 calibre.....nothing else.

The bore was mentioned as "no pitting, faint trace of rifling".

I guess someone not familiar with lever guns may assume that the relatively shallow rifling is worn, compared to say a new/newish modern bolt action .308 or similar?

Edit; its is also listed as a "civil war carbine", but not sure if that is referring to the provenance of this specific rifle, or the Spencer in general. I will ask that question if I get closer to buying it. Feels like Xmas is coming up

[elk hunter]

Ozzman;

Spencers were sold to several country's after the US civil war so it may or may not be one from that conflict, not that it would make a great deal of difference to most folks. If it is marked as 50 caliber it may be a reworked mdl 1860 if not marked it is most likely a mdl 1865 but, it should be marked as such. If it doesn't have and never had provision for a saddle ring it is most likely a rifle that was cut down. Sounds like the description for it is a bit vague.

If you do get it I'm sure you will enjoy it, I do like shooting mine.

[The Ozzman]

Thanks Elk Hunter. I appreciate you taking the time to help.

Yes the chap doesn't seem to know alot about it. I am currently deciding whether to get it now, or wait until after the antique arms auction in early may. There are some lovely old west guns in the auction; a couple of sharps carbines (one with maynard tape prime setup), several colt percussion revolver, a Colt slide action 45-60 and many other cool old guns.

If I am not successful and the Spencer is still there I will most likely grab it. That is dependant on the bore being reasonable though, all he said about that was no pitting, faint trace of rifling.

[Speedo66]

You know, it's funny about old rifle bores. I have an 1889 Model '73 Winchester in .38-40 whose bore looks horrible. Barely any rifling, and rusted, pitted, etc. I got it for next to nothing, had no expectations, figured it for a wall hanger. Yet, it will consistently hit a bowling pin at 60 yards. So it's hard to say how accurate it will be until you shoot it.

[The Ozzman]

Thanks Speedo66.

I have heard that from several people, it is encouraging and interesting too.

Will keep you posted as I have not yet made a firm decision yet.

[The Ozzman]

Actually guys, I am struggling to clarify the ammunition/bore diameter situation.

The gun I am referring to is marked as being a .50 calibre. I see some other Spencers marked as .50 calibre too. Does this refer to 56-56, 56-50 or something else?

It is my understanding that the .56-56 and .56-52 are a .52 calibre, though I read bullet diameter is approx .54.

When people call them .50 Spencers, is this just because .50 is close to .52? Ie; they're actually a .52 calibre arm and called .50 as "slang" terminology?

The reason I want to know is that firstly I want to know what I may be buying, secondly, assuming the breechblock will be converted to centrefire, I want reloading for it to be an option if I choose to do that in the future.

To summarise; if it's called a .50, does this refer to either the .56-56 and/or .56-50 and secondly; apart from the breechblock conversion, can all spencer carbines be reloaded for (all centrefire calibres)?

[The Ozzman]

I hope these turn out suitably, the spencer I refer to is shown in these pictures...

[ascast]

Ozzeman my 2 cents - where are you Country? or rather not say. Old worn out rifling might shoot well enough to hit a deer at 100 yards, or maybe not. In my experience, keep velocity lower, and use as big a bullet as you can fit in. BIG means long bearing surface and 3-4 maybe 5 thousands OVER groove size. And use dead soft lead. That's the general recipe. If you wind up using the .22 rimfire "primers", pull the bullet first.

Now, somebody made up a bunch a new replacement barrels for those back in the '70 or '80's. I think DIXIE sold them. You could have three original 3 groove musket style or a modern 6 groove, narrow lands, wide groove style. I know this as I bought a small pile of them once. I don't think I have any left. Maybe. Point is, they are out there. You just have to keep nosing around and you 'll find one.
You might want to contact the bigger American re-enactment groups. good luck

[The Ozzman]

Hi there ascast. I am outside of the US sadly.

I like those tips re; bullet size, soft lead etc etc. I had speculated soft lead would be the way to go, nice to hear that from someone more knowledgeable than myself.

A barrel replacement may be an option down the track. I have emailed the gentleman selling this arm asking for a photo of the bore and rifling, so we will see what it is like. Subjectivity being what it is, the bore may be fine. The breechblock conversion is manageable too, via one of two options.

As I mentioned, I dont want to shoot it right away, but I want a gun that can be made to shoot down the track. Kinda like having a classic car, one wants the engine in running or near running order even if driving is not on the cards at the present. I'm a bit of a perfectionist that way.

Everyones tips are helping me build a larger picture of what I need to know and I am very grateful for the time you all have taken out of your days/evenings to help out. The next step for me is waiting to get the bore/rifling images, as well as finding out what the actual calibre is.

Thanks partners.

[herbert buckland]

The carbine looks to be a CW 56-56 (.543 heeled base bullet) some were relined with a 3 groove 56-50 liner(bullets for these are around .520)I have been shooting Spencers in Australia for over 40 years now so if you need any tips just ask

[The Ozzman]

Thanks Herbert! Nice to hear from you.

The final bits of information I ahve been able to obtain; the gentleman bought it in Michigan when he was 14, he is now 80. He tells me it has no pitting but only about 15% rifling left. He cannot take photos due to his camera not being up to taking pics of the rifling.

So I'm still on the fence, a bit much of a gamble without photos, will see what happens.

[elk hunter]

Will the seller let you return it after a three day inspection period if you're not satisfied ? If so buy it and look it over, if it's condition is too bad for the price paid return it. If the interior of the barrel is not badly rusted and pitted I can't imagine it being shot out. It is possible to scrub the rifling out by improper cleaning but again that would be unusual. It all comes down to the asking price and your skill level or depth of your check book to rejuvenate or repair it to shooting condition. From the pictures it looks much better than mine did when I acquired it.

[The Ozzman]

Thanks Elk hunter. Its reasurring that the photos look better than your when first obtained!

I am not sure if he would let me return etc, given his age and inability to take rifling photos I get the impression that he needs/wants to sell it and be done. Having said that it is not easy buying with only three external photos.

My only real concern is the rifling, everything else is something I can work with. Frustratingly, the rifling is the part he cant photgraph! I am thinking though he may be wrong in his 15% rifling assessment.

Thanks for your time
Ozz

[elk hunter]

Ozzman,

Sounds like you need to contact Herbert Buckland, he's in your country and has been shooting Spencers for years which tells me he has quite a bit of knowledge and should be able to advise you on where to get a centerfire conversion or at least a drawing of the breech block. Also you will need to slug the bore of the carbine to determine what diameter bullet you will need. The manufacturers of the original rimfire ammunition couldn't agree on the proper bullet diameter for any of the Spencer cartridges, they varied from .496 to .528 just in 56-50 caliber. The other three common calibers 56-56, 56-52 and 56-46 had as much or more variation.

Good luck.