Thoughts on smokeless use in Antique Colt SAA

[birch]

I ran across a 1889 Colt SAA in 44-40. It is a black powder frame and seems to have had a replacement barrel at some point in time. There is the usual amount of Colt SAA endshake, but nothing distracting or out of the ordinary. Timing is near perfect. I have not examined the cylinder throats or forcing cone other than a quick once over

I hope a few real SAA experts might chime in to offer some advise. Do you folks feel it would be OK to create some mousefart to medium level smokeless loads without worry?

I don't much care for shooting black powder. If you all warn against doing, I would still consider the purchase and factory load some BP rounds.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

The frame on the early Colt pistols was actually a type of iron instead of steel and not recommended for smokeless powder. When smokeless came into general use, Colt made the frames of forged steel. Many an old pistol has been blown to bits by using modern powder in them. Trade the pistol for a modern copy.

[birch]

Noted.

I already have a modern copy...it is a split serial number late 3rd gen. I don't think I will ever love a firearm more than that one. I know it is made by Colt, but there are some peculiar irregularities that would not exist on a 2000 gun. I am really longing for a 1st gen SAA.

If I get this Colt, I will have no problem reloading black powder, but I just don't like cleaning that stuff up. The last time I shot black powder out of my 45, I did a cleaning that took almost an hour and a half.

I have heard the metallurgy theory and I have also heard the theory that the weakest link in a black powder frame 1885-1905 SAA was the barrel.

The guy who owned this SAA claims to have shot factory 44-40 lrn smokeless loads out of the gun for the last 30 years. But.......I also know someone who runs 100 octane automobile gasoline in a Twin engine Piper Apache instead of 100LL. He has been OK so far, but I think he is a little crazy.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I don't think shooting modern smokeless loads in a bp frame Colt SAA is a good idea. But I did it to the extent of about 25 rounds, and here's the story for entertainment value only. Around 1959 I was given an 1887 specimen that wasn't too bad externally, but had just an awful bore. Lots of deep pits and almost no rifling. I wanted to shoot it and knew that it had been designed for bp cartridges, but had access to none. I consulted a gunsmith whom I respected greatly about the safety of shooting some of the modern Winchester ammo he had in stock, and he sold me a box with the following reasoning: "When they started making smokeless loads they had to take into consideration that folks would fire them in existing guns, and loaded them accordingly. How long would they be in business if they sold ammunition that blew up the customer's guns?" So, I bought a box of 50 Winchester cartridges (this was a .45) and fired three cylinders full. The gun came through it fine, but was terribly inaccurate. Nonetheless, I liked to carry it around my dad's ranch, and one day encountered a diamondback rattler of about 4 ft. in length by a log in the woods. I pulled out the old Colt and blasted away with all of the 5 rounds, missing on the first shot, then carefully aiming and missing on the next 4 also. The snake crawled away under the log, and if they can laugh I'll bet it was. I never carried the Colt again and finally got talked into selling it for $1,200 in the late 1990s. But I held onto the box of cartridges and just shot up the remaining half of the box about 3 years ago in a Ruger NM Vaquero. By then the ammo was at least 54 years old, and fired just fine. But, let me repeat, I don't think it's a good idea and don't recommend the practice.

[birch]

Noted

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Birch, you can do as you please but if it were me I would not trust what someone told me but rather what is common sense. Even in the 19th century Colt barrels were made of steel while the frames were made of iron I have seen them in person that were blown and have seen many pictures of others that were and I never saw one that had a blown barrel. They were all missing the top trap and top half of the cylinder. Mike Venterino blew up a Colt SAA in 44-40 and the gun was made in 1914. He wrote that it was a moderate load but the pistol let go anyway. For years after smokeless powder came into general use many shotgun shooters would use it in old Damascus barrel shot guns. Most of the time they held up but some blew up. As for loading black powder and cleaning the gun, it isn't that bad. When I shot cap & ball pistols I cleaned them by removing the cylinder and holding them under the faucet using very hot water. I held the cylinder separately. The metal would get hot enough to dry itself. It's a trick house wives use to clean cast iron skillets. The cylinder walls on the 44-40 are about the same thickness as the 45 Colt and that is pretty thin. Give it serious thought and if you decide to go ahead and use smokeless try firing the pistol without actually holding it in you hand. Keep us informed. I would hate to hear of you getting hurt.

[birch]

I think I am going g to err on caution and wait for a later date. I do appreciate the input. Thanks all.

[Dryball]

If you want to shoot smokeless...why not try Trailboss or Lawman? Load as per directions and you'll be safe

[.22-10-45]

A common misconception is that because of it's low velocity..TrailBoss is a low pressure powder..just the opposite is true. In his book shooting double rifles, Graham Wright states a high grade British double was locked up by a moderate charge of TrailBoss.

[Dryball]

I'd be interested in reading that book if you could tell me where I could find it. I use TB in a few originals and have never had any problems or concerns. I, also, have only used this powder in straight walled cases... I wonder if these "problems" would be the same for Lawman powder...never had any experience with that stuff.

[Dryball]

Sorry, I misspoke...it was Tin Star I was thinking of. http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/powders/tin-star.html

[smkummer]

I was looking for a reference on the type of iron/steel used in the SAA but cant find it. Somewhere I read that in the late 1880's, the iron was changed to steel. But that is really only worth .02. at this time. I bought an original 1875 Remington chambered in 44-40 and my first loads were 777. For what its worth, the black powder or substitute ammo is fun and a crowd pleaser for sure. The chambers were not pitted. And the bore looked good. They worked fine but a good cleaning sometimes means that the action should be taken apart to make sure the residue is not in the action as well. So I too wanted a safe smokeless load. I settled on a cowboy action load using 700X smokeless powder and 200 cast Lee bullet in the 7500 PSI range. Factory SAMMI specs for 44-40 is I believe around 12,000 psi. It has worked fine for the 200 rounds I have fired. I later read the Remingtons were known for oversized throats and my oversized cast bullet unsized works fine. So I will never fire a jacketed bullet in this gun. Please note I am not giving advice, just saying what I have done. Good luck.

[Dale53]

If I wanted to shoot a black powder SAA Colt, I would DEFINITELY use black powder. For several years, I competed in Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette rifle matches. They offered side matches for single action fixed sighted revolvers. I used a modern Ruger Vaquero and a Ruger Bisley Vaquero. I used both Pyrodex and Black Powder. Clean up using a home made black powder solvent took just a few minutes.

My black powder solvent was "Friendship Speed Juice" (equal parts of Hydrogen Pyroxide, 90+% Rubbing Alcohol, and Murphy's Oil Soap). Just remove the cylinder and run a few wet patches of FSJ through the cylinder and barrel. Wipe off all residue with a couple of wet patches. Then a couple of dry patches. IMMEDIATELY follow up with wet patches of Ed's Red. I could get 70 shots before the cylinder would start binding from fouling. Then a five minute cleaning job and I was ready for another 70 shots.

After the last cleaning, I would leave the gun wet with Ed's Red. Three days later, I would clean it again with Ed's Red (just like the military did after using corrosive ammo up until the fifties).

Use a good black powder bullet lube and cast bullets with a good lubricating groove. It is simple and effective.

Don't be afraid to use black powder. My Ruger still looks like brand new after thousands of shots with black. It shoots well, also. My revolver shoots about 2" at 25 yards off a rest with black. I can get nearly 1000 fps with the .45 Colt Ruger Bisley Vaquero. That is a SERIOUS load for general use, too. My bullet for the .45 Colt was the Lyman 452664. If I were going to load for the 44/40, I would get a bullet mould similar to the Lyman 427666 (a 200 gr. round flat with a good crimp groove and deep lubricating groove), cast it of 30/1 lead/tin size it appropriately for the revolver in question and shoot it with a smile on my face.

For maximum performance, Swiss 2f or 3F would be my preference in black powder.

FWIW
Dale53

[therealhitman]

I think this could be a great example of natural selection at work. If the gun gets you all blowed up, well then all your buddies can protest and loot stuff and yer family can try and sue Colt for whatever they believe you were worth. Might even get on CNN bro. Posthumously of course.

[Ithaca Gunner]

The BP Colts weren't warrantied for smokeless, and I forget the year Colt began warranting their revolvers for smokeless, but it was sometime after 1894 I'm sure. Metalurgy aside, checking the throats is another good idea, small throats can lead to excessive pressure with any powder used. Elmer Keith blew up a SAA .45 with a load of BP under a 300+ gr boolit trying to get a "magnum" hunting load worked out, from then on he used .44Spl. for his hot-rodding, and I believe blew a couple of them up also in the name of magnum-izing.

[w5pv]

Don't hot rod any gun,stay within safe limits and you will be fine.

[KenH]

I have a question here, why would a smokeless load that is loaded to 1/2 or less of BP pressures give a problem in a BP gun? Remember, the OP did mention "mouse fart" type loads.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Here's something from Phil Spangenberger,

Many Peacemaker fans seem to misunderstand the terms “black powder” frame and “smokeless” frame, so let’s clear the smoke.

Single Action Army shooters who think the term “black powder” frame means one can only fire black powder ammunition in this handgun, and the “smokeless” frame is for use with smokeless ammo, I’m sorry to say this, but you’re WRONG! With currently produced 1873 Single Action Army (SAA) Colts or modern replicas of the ’73 Peacemaker, you can fire either black powder or smokeless ammo in either frame style.

The frame system has nothing to do with smokeless powder. Colt did not guarantee any of its SAA revolvers for use with the then-new smokeless propellant until around serial number 180,000 (produced in 1898). What these frame designations actually tell the firearms user is which era of manufacture a particular single action represents.

The “black powder” moniker comes from the fact that the first Peacemaker Colts were made with a cylinder base pin retaining system that used a single screw, located at the front of the revolver’s frame.

In 1896, at around serial number 165,000, Colt changed over to the so-called “smokeless” frame, on which the cylinder base pin is held in place by spring-loaded, cross-pin screws. The “smokeless” frame system had been in use as early as 1877, on Colt’s double-action models.

The “smokeless” cross-pin system allows the user to remove the cylinder from the frame by depressing the cross-pin screws, pulling out the base pin and then removing the cylinder. The older single screw system on the “black powder” frame requires a screwdriver to remove the base pin retention screw, then the cylinder.

While the more modern system is certainly faster in removing a cylinder, it does present a potential problem. If the cross-pin screws loosen up and the base pin slides forward during recoil of the gun, the cylinder can become stuck or actually fall out of the frame. (This has actually happened to me on a number of occasions.) This won’t happen in “black powder” frame-type six-guns, as long as the screw is firmly in place. During my decades of firing Peacemaker Colts and Colt clones, I have never experienced a malfunction due to the single screw system.

With modern–made arms, shootists wishing to be authentic to the Old West era will probably want the “black powder” frame (1873-96), while those wishing to represent the end of the 19th century up to modern times could opt for the so-called “smokeless” frame. I do advise those of you working with vintage Colt revolvers (serial numbers under 180,000) that you load them only with black powder cartridges—and then only after having them carefully inspected by a competent gunsmith.

[flint45]

Just shoot black its better anyway in that colt its not hard to do, its fun and works great nice big boom!and smoke my .45 shoots better with black then smokeless any way.

[historicfirearms]

I think this could be a great example of natural selection at work. If the gun gets you all blowed up, well then all your buddies can protest and loot stuff and yer family can try and sue Colt for whatever they believe you were worth. Might even get on CNN bro. Posthumously of course.

LOL, do it birch. Dibs on your p35.