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Thread: IMR 4895 in 30/30

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    Winchester M94, 30-30, Williams peep and a too fat diopter pin on the front sight (which I'm replacing)
    Ideal 311413 - Brinell 15.3 - 170.8gr
    16.5gr IMR 4759

    A box of 20:
    * got the 0.481" setting for the 300m pigs - downed 3 in a row
    * got the 0.700" setting for the 500m rams - (an approximate 7 inch, 5 shot group on the 500m swinger per my spotter) and then downed 1 ram ... no more rounds
    Regards
    John

  2. #22
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Speed kills, it also kills your boolits.

    For me I'd rather have a large soft cast of 50 % COWW and 50% range scrap with 1.5 to 2% tin added, moving at a nice sedate 1600 fps. When you get in trouble IMO is when you try to make cast and soft cast try to do jacketed speeds.

    But I don't hunt lately, just not up for it anymore. Not to mention not having any need to kill anything.

    But I have 20 rounds loaded in .30-30 with 185 grain boolits that were cast at .312, gas checked, flat pointed with a homemade jig in a drill press with no belt. And I'm willing to bet a pretty good sized chunk that those rounds would drop a deer sure and swift if you put it where it needs to be.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master


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    Historically speaking IMR4895 is probably as close as we can get to the original DuPont .30 smokeless powder used in the 30WCF but it may actually be a bit slower. I think there are better powders today but have never felt the 30WCF was finicky. I think some may try to push a boolit as fast as a j-word in this cartridge, I haven't had much luck in that endeavor. Lots of powders seem to work reasonably well and a handful are pretty exceptional. A GC'd .311 boolit is a good start, I like the 311041 clone from NOE. I've had good luck with everything from 2400 to Rx7.
    Endowment Life Member NRA, Life Member TSRA, Member WACA, NRA Whittington Center, BBHC
    Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
    I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
    Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    I wouldn't say the .30-30 is finicky either. I own 4 now, and probably somewhere in the neighborhood of a dozen more over the years. I never had a bit of trouble getting one to shoot. I'll go so far to say that I consider the .30-30 to be as nearly a perfect cast bullet cartridge for the dual purpose of target shooting/plinking and for hunting, and very forgiving as to powder types and loads. If someone is having trouble finding a powder to work in an otherwise sound gun, I gotta think there is some extraneous problem in play.

    I wouldn't feel handicapped one bit for the shooting I do if my one gun were a .30-30 (but please let it be a good single shot or bolt action for that purpose)!

  5. #25
    Boolit Master


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    Great thread, OP! Been on my mind for the past few days, I think I need to dabble a bit with a 30WCF in the near future.
    To address your concern I think the only finicky thing about a 94 is shooting technique; more specifically bag placement. It's addressed in other threads (and you may have read them) but I've found the front bag is critical with a 94 carbine, with rifles as well but to a lesser extent. I get the best results with the bag all the way to the receiver end of the fore stock and the wood settled into the bag. Upward pressure on the barrel is something you want to avoid. The fore end band and the magazine band can put enough pressure on the barrel to open groups in a disconcerting way.
    Back to the sometimes-maligned 30WCF, 30-30, thutty-thutty...I've been loading rifle ammo for almost 40 years and until about ten years ago loading for this cartridge simply wasn't worth my time. I seldom shot my only 30-30 (a Trapper, oddly enough) and I had plenty of cheap ($7.95/box) ammo on hand. Then one day the cheap ammo ran out and the price tag now read $15.95 and soon $19.95. My next Midway order had dies and J-words. After a few years I discovered boolit casting and a few years after that I started collecting older Winchesters. Nowadays the 30WCF and the 32Spl are two of my favorite cartridges.
    OK, I probably have at least a dozen "favorites". But like my friend gnoahhh, I'll always have a thutty-thutty.
    Last edited by TXGunNut; 03-16-2017 at 10:58 PM.
    Endowment Life Member NRA, Life Member TSRA, Member WACA, NRA Whittington Center, BBHC
    Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
    I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
    Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master




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    Nowadays the 30WCF and the 32Spl are two of my favorite cartridges.
    OK, I probably have at least a dozen "favorites". But like my friend gnoahhh, I'll always have a thutty-thutty.
    That about says it all.
    Keep your powder dry,

    Scharf

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnoahhh View Post

    .30-30 (Winchester M54, candy bar is the rare option offered by Winchester for five minutes in 1933):


    Dang, that 54 is sweet!
    I confess I am envious as all get out.

    Uncle R.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    I currently have three .30 WCF rifles in my stable. Have to confess, that Remlin 336 BL is starting to look really good to me and I don't even like big loop levers. Can't explain why, it just calls to me for some reason!
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, .30 WCF, .45-70 Gov't.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master




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    I just chronographed the 311041 170 grain bullet over 28 grains of surplus 4895 and 34 grains of H 4350 today.

    With 4895, 10 shots averaged just under 2,000 fps with an extreme spread of 70 and and Sd of 24 for a 10 shot string. Barrel length was 22 inches. The other components were CCI 200 LR primers, Winchester cases with a light roll crimp. The bore was clean and no debris noted after firing so for a repeating rifle, this is a pretty good load.

    That should give you some idea anyway of the velocity for a moderate 4895 load. Newer IMR and Hodgdon 4895 powders may be slight different.

    Larry Gibson tells me that the surplus 4895 that we both use acts more like 4064 when subjected to pressure testing so "emptor caveat."

    34 grains of Hodgdon's 4350 was right at 1,900 fps with almost the same ES and Sd figures. Some burnt powder debris noted in the barrel after the 10 shot string so for a repeater, one may have to clean more frequently to preclude chambering issues.
    Last edited by Scharfschuetze; 03-18-2017 at 12:28 AM.
    Keep your powder dry,

    Scharf

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    If velocity is what you want out of a .30-30, try LeveRevolution powder. I worked up a load using the advice of Larry Gibson and found 34.5g to give 2330 fps with an SD of 10 and a little over 1" gps at 50 meters. The boolit used is a NOE 311-165GC heat treated to Bhn 22 and sized to .310(before heat treating). Primer is Winchester WLR. OAL is 2.400. Boolit weight is 171g.
    It's all chicken, even the beak!

  11. #31
    Boolit Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    4350 sounds way too slow for ol' dirty-thirty to me. My .257 Roberts absolutely adores the stuff though. I use 4064 exclusively with j-words in .30 WCF nowadays, best powder I've ever found for that purpose and it's always in stock here. 30 grains under a 150 grain Sierra averages a bit more than an inch at 100 yards out of my Glenfield 30 and drops below an inch more often than it has a right to!
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, .30 WCF, .45-70 Gov't.

  12. #32
    Boolit Bub
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    Scharfschuetze thanks for posting that. That's some good usable info right there. Also a big thanks to FergusonTO35 and everybody else that has chimed in on this thread. There's a lot of knowledge here to be absorbed. Which is why I mostly lurk around here reading and searching.

    Anyway, as soon as I can get my hands on some 170 grain boolits I'll give them a try and keep working at it.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master




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    4350 sounds way too slow for ol' dirty-thirty to me
    My most accurate 30/30 loads with the 311041 bullet use 4831 powder, which as you know is slightly slower than 4350. Velocity is right at 1,800 fps and they will shoot into 10 shot groups of 3.5 to 4 inches at 200 yards from a 788 Remington. A search for 4831 and the 30/30 should find the thread detailing the details and load development of that particularly experiment.

    For me, accuracy trumps velocity and the slow powders seem to do very well in this regard in the rather smallish 30/30 case. Perhaps it's the slow start to pressure build up and overall lower pressure of the slow powders that are kind to the cast bullets for good accuracy.

    Swamp Fox,

    Thanks for your kind words.
    Last edited by Scharfschuetze; 03-18-2017 at 11:34 PM.
    Keep your powder dry,

    Scharf

  14. #34
    Boolit Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    I'll have to remember that. I have a can of H380 that needs a purpose, might merit a try in the .30 WCF.
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, .30 WCF, .45-70 Gov't.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swamp Fox View Post
    Ideally I would like to duplicate a factory 150 grain load with a cast boolit. My gun shoots federal 150 grns at just under 1.5" at 50 yards. The gun is probably more capable but I'm not, at least with iron sights. I know I probably can't get factory velocities, but I would be happy around 2000 fps. My load with 4895 is shooting about a 3" group, the best I could get with 4198 was about 4" at 22 grains. Anything over that and the groups opened up.

    I would also add that I'm no expert at this. This is is my first attempt at fairly accurate reloads, mostly I have just been making cheap plinking ammo. It seems like the general consensus is that my bullets are suspect?
    I've had my best accuracy with RL7 at near max levels. I'm shooting out of up to 6 different .30-30s, from a 16" Trapper, to a heavy custom barreled 26" octagon... all Winchester 94s. My notebook show they chronograph @ 2190ave. SD of 12. Best group has been 3/4" @ 200 yards, tang peep & globe front off the bench. This is a 150gr GCFN cast of 6:1 (WW:Lino), in a Saeco #316 mold. Either CCI or Hornday gas checks. Seated to a COAL of 2.52". Same load as listed in Lyman's 49th Handbook. The only difference for me is I'm using WLR primers instead of their listed CCI200 and I'm using a grain less powder. I don't particularly like stick powders in the .30-30... but...
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  16. #36
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    I get good results with 335, 4895 & LeverE for 150- 185 gr in a Marlin 336. Mixed brass, any LR primer and Lee die set.
    Whatever!

  17. #37
    Boolit Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    Hmm, I got some Reloader 7 too. May have to roll some up with it!
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, .30 WCF, .45-70 Gov't.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    I've been partial to the .32 Special for nigh onto 53 years since shooting my first buck with a Win Model 94 at age 12. I presently own four .32 Specials and two 30-30's. The above targets were shot with my 1957 Marlin 336SC in .32 Win Special which has a factory ballard rifled barrel. It wears a Leupold VXI 2x7x33 scope. Target #1 is my Ranch Dog 323-170 cast of WW and a little tin added to help the casting process and weighs 182 grains with lube and GC applied. Target is a group of five shots @ 50 yards due to my poor eyesight. Velocity is 1744fps for ten shots using 16.0 grains of Alliant 2400 and a Fed 215 primer Next target is my 08-170 RCBS mold cast of the exact same alloy and it too weighs 182 grains lubed and gas check attached. The speed of that bullet is 2335 fps launched by 37.5 grains of H-LVR and a CCI 250 primer. The twist rate of most .32 Specials being 1:16 makes for an outstanding cast bullet shooter with no muss or fuss. I have a 1948 vintage Marlin 336SC in 30-30 with ballard rifling with a 1:12 twist and aperture receiver site that shoots my Lyman 31141 bullet just fine but it is more fussy than any .32 Win Special in my collection. My other 30-30 is a 2002 Marlin 336W with microgroove rifling and my cast bullet attempts with it have been fruitless.

    As a side note, I own that Win Model 94 in .32 Win Special that I shot my first buck with at age 12. My Uncle Jack sold it to me for $50.00 in 1973 after my return home from military service. I will always treasure that firearm till the day the Lord takes me home.

    358 Win


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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check