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Thread: IMR 4895 in 30/30

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
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    IMR 4895 in 30/30

    I'm trying to work up an accurate hunting level load for my win 94 trapper. I tried 3031 with no luck, 4198 was a good but better, but still not the accuracy I need. Looking here I found that several people have reccomended 4895, but I don't have a manual with any loads for it. I loaded some rounds up with 28 grains and got the best groups yet, but hitting about 6" lower than factory loads, which tells me the velocity is a good bit lower. Does anybody have a manual or chronograph data that can tell me a ballpark velocity on this load? The hodgoden website lists a max load of 33.5 grains; but that's with a jacketed bullet, not sure how high I can go with cast.

    Also, I've been sizing my boolits to .310. I thought about trying some sized to .311, but my moulds only dropping at .310. Think they might bump up a little in diameter being pushed into the sizer? Mould is a lee 150 grain gas check.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    My Marlins and Mossberg 464 love 28 grains IMR 4895 with the Lee boolit at .310. I suspect your Winny will too. Your velocity may not be as low as you think. Jacketed slugs usually require more powder and pressure to accomplish the same velocity, with attendant extra recoil and higher trajectory. This load clocks around 1900 fps in my Marlin 336 Texan, a 150 grain jword requires a full two more grains powder to do the same thing.
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, .30 WCF, .45-70 Gov't.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master

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    If the mold is dropping them .310" they won't even touch a .311" sizer.
    Rick

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    How hard are you casting (BHN) ,little harder =little fatter

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
    rintinglen's Avatar
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    a hard boolit, a good lube and a gas check will take you as far as a 30--30 can drive. Your .310 boolits should be just fine. For maximum "oomph," I like WW-748, although I have heard good things about Leverevolution for max loads. It is hard to get enough IMR-4895 into a 30-30 case to bend the gun. H4895 may be another story, but I have never used that. For accuracy, I like 17.5 grains of 2400 and a 311-466.
    _________________________________________________It's not that I can't spell: it is that I can't type.

  6. #6
    Boolit Bub
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    Not too sure about the hardness, I don't have a way to test. They aren't as hard as I could make them because I want them to expand in game.
    I guess I'm just a little stumped as to why I can't find a load I'm happy with. I just want to duplicate the accuracy of factory loads in this gun with a reasonable velocity for hunting. I could be happy with 1900 fps, but everything I've read says it shouldn't be a problem to get factory velocities too.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Get the hardness right (COWW) water quenched. Then accuracy then velocity. I wouln't obsess over expansion with a flat point but the tips can be softened with a torch by immersing the bullets in water up to the desired soft tip. In addition to IMR 3031, I've always liked 4320,4064, and H335 for the 30-30.
    best, Thomas.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    More info is needed here. What kind of accuracy are you trying to get? What sort of scope or sights are you using? How are you sighting in the rifle, i.e. benchrest, shooting sticks, offhand?
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, .30 WCF, .45-70 Gov't.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by FergusonTO35 View Post
    More info is needed here. What kind of accuracy are you trying to get? What sort of scope or sights are you using? How are you sighting in the rifle, i.e. benchrest, shooting sticks, offhand?
    That said it all -

  10. #10
    Boolit Man
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    Good morning, HAPPY PIE!!!!
    I kinda figured anything over 1200fp of muzzle energy was enough out of a 30-30, or any 30 cal rifle, with 1500 at the top, when using cast. I load the Lee 170 RNFP. I have used a wide variety of powder, from RedDot, HS-6, RE7, H4895, IMR4895, IMR3031 and several others. The "best" I could get with a early 60's Win94 was 8 shots out of 10(nice groups just large) on a paper dinner plate at 100 yards at the 1900-2000fps. Slowed them down and the groups shrunk. Had the GC milled out of the mold turning it into a plain based boolit, as cast TL with thinned Lee Alox, slowed it down to 1400-1500fps and same rifle 3-4 inch groups. Now the energy drops to less than 1000fp. I have shot a couple of butcher steers and they dropped, well, like a dead steer. A couple of coyotes did the same. Energy isn't any good, if it disperses into trees and dirt, as opposed to flesh and bone.
    I use this same system as quoted from
    Texas by God "Get the hardness right (COWW) water quenched. Then accuracy then velocity."

    It has been, fit, lube, starting load Xpowder, increase until accuracy improves or falls off. Start with another starting load and try again...and so on...and so on....repeat until YOU are happy!! The old Lyman books always had an asterisk ** marking what they found as an accurate load. For me it has always been a good guide.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    Accuracy trumps everything for me. What is your best load for that rifle, Bullseye?
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, .30 WCF, .45-70 Gov't.

  12. #12
    Boolit Bub
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    I'm shooting off a bag on a bench. I could drag my rest out but I find it aggravating to use with a lever gun. The rifle has a receiver mounted Williams peep sight on it.

    Ideally I would like to duplicate a factory 150 grain load with a cast boolit. My gun shoots federal 150 grns at just under 1.5" at 50 yards. The gun is probably more capable but I'm not, at least with iron sights. I know I probably can't get factory velocities, but I would be happy around 2000 fps. My load with 4895 is shooting about a 3" group, the best I could get with 4198 was about 4" at 22 grains. Anything over that and the groups opened up.

    I would also add that I'm no expert at this. This is is my first attempt at fairly accurate reloads, mostly I have just been making cheap plinking ammo. It seems like the general consensus is that my bullets are suspect?

  13. #13
    Boolit Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    What kind of lube are you using on those slugs?
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, .30 WCF, .45-70 Gov't.

  14. #14
    Boolit Bub
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    Rcbs rifle bullet lube. I think it's 50/50 Alox and beeswax but I'd have to look to be sure. Not getting any leading though.

  15. #15
    Boolit Man
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    Try some ww 748 if you have any,you might like it. I use enough to push a Ranch Dog bullet cast out of Lyman #2 and water dropped, at around 1900-2000 fps. It shoots deadly accurate out of three 30/30"s same load in all, sized to .311, and lubed with LBT Blue soft, kills with authority . This was a Veral Smith suggested powder for 30/30.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master FergusonTO35's Avatar
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    I would think the RCBS lube would be sufficient but you may want to try something different on your next batch of boolits. I have had excellent success in .30 WCF with Randy Rat's Tac-X (costs 1/4 as much as commercial lubes) and also painting the shank with a thick coat of LLA as Ranch Dog does. I have read that Winchesters tend to prefer heavier boolits, yours might just strongly prefer the 170 grain.
    Currently casting and loading: .32 Auto, .380 Auto, .38 Special, 9X19, .357 Magnum, .257 Roberts, .30 WCF, .45-70 Gov't.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    My thoughts on this subject.
    Many know but seldom say. "30-30 is without a doubt one finicky re-loadable cartridge."

    Few things I found reloading the 30wcf for my 94.

    A. Expecting to shoot G/c cast near or above jacketed speeds regardless of BHN is undoubtedly troublesome for many who try.
    B. Cast with a really high BHN although dandy for hole making in paper targets is marginal at best for taking thin skin big game. Such boolits purposely used for hunting are very likely to inhibit the quarry's quick humane demise due to little or no lead expansion irregardless of its point of impact.

    1. 30 wcf. Better accuracy had with the use of 170 gr. all the way up to 190 gr. for this old venerable cartridge (due to the barrels twist rate.)
    2. After much experimentation with most IMR rifle powders. Accurate Arms 2230 has been my powder of choice for that cartridge for quite some time. Especially so with its capability to nicely group heavier cast boolit weights.
    3. If wanting to shoot cast below 165 gr in weight. Think slow burning pistol powders for that effort with speeds hovering close to 1650 at best. Accuracy I observed with such pistol powders? unknown.
    "JUST A OLD DEPLORABLE THAT'S IRREDEEMABLE."

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverMax View Post
    My thoughts on this subject.
    Many know but seldom say. "30-30 is without a doubt one finicky re-loadable cartridge."

    Few things I found reloading the 30wcf for my 94.

    A. Expecting to shoot G/c cast near or above jacketed speeds regardless of BHN is undoubtedly troublesome for many who try.
    B. Cast with a really high BHN although dandy for hole making in paper targets is marginal at best for taking thin skin big game. Such boolits purposely used for hunting are very likely to inhibit the quarry's quick humane demise due to little or no lead expansion irregardless of its point of impact.

    1. 30 wcf. Better accuracy had with the use of 170 gr. all the way up to 190 gr. for this old venerable cartridge (due to the barrels twist rate.)
    2. After much experimentation with most IMR rifle powders. Accurate Arms 2230 has been my powder of choice for that cartridge for quite some time. Especially so with its capability to nicely group heavier cast boolit weights.
    3. If wanting to shoot cast below 165 gr in weight. Think slow burning pistol powders for that effort with speeds hovering close to 1650 at best. Accuracy I observed with such pistol powders? unknown.
    This. I decided long ago that in order to keep the alloy soft enough for reliable deer killing, at a speed fast enough to avert leading but still induce expansion, I needed a bullet heavier than 150 grains. I use nothing but 180 RN's or 190 FN's in all my .30 deer rifles- .30-30, .303 Savage, and .30-06. Driven at the same velocity out of all three, 18-1900fps, they work, and are deucedly accurate too. 3031 is where I stand for hunting weight cast bullets in the .30-30 and .303 Savage- never had a need to go elsewhere. The .30-30 will put 10 in an inch at 100, with Fecker target scope mounted on it, 5 into 1" with receiver sight if I squint and hold just right and the gods are smiling on me.

    .30-30 (Winchester M54, candy bar is the rare option offered by Winchester for five minutes in 1933):



    .303 Savage:


  19. #19
    Boolit Master


    nagantguy's Avatar
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    Keep tweaking with load and alloy and seating depth and you should get there! 4895 in imr or H is my go to for 30-30, never found one that wouldn't work well with it in some combination! I use a lee 170 mold, with my house alloy they drop after pc and gc at about 181 and work beautifully in 30/30 06 etc!

  20. #20
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverMax View Post
    My thoughts on this subject.
    Many know but seldom say. "30-30 is without a doubt one finicky re-loadable cartridge."
    Maybe this right here is what I'm learning. Lots of people say how great a cast shooter it is but for get to mention the finicky part.

    Interesting thoughts here about shooting heavier bullets, and something I hadn't even considered. I may post up on the boolit exchange forum and see if I can get a few of the 170 grains to see if that makes a difference.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check