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Thread: 357 Herrett and IMR 4227, differences between manuals

  1. #1
    Boolit Master hornady308's Avatar
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    357 Herrett and IMR 4227, differences between manuals

    For those who don't already know, Hodgdon 4227 is no longer made. Only imr4227 is now available. Many of the best loads developed for the Herrett used the Hodgdon powder. Comparing the 2009 Hodgdon manual to the RCBS cast bullet manual number one, there are some large disparities in the published data for the IMR data. RCBS shows a maximum load of 28 grains of IMR for a 162 grain cast bullet and a max of 27 grains for a 175 grain cast bullet. Meanwhile, the Hodgdon manual shows a max load of 20.2 grains of IMR with a 158 grain jacketed bullet and 20.1 grains with a 170 grain jacketed bullet. This seems like a rather large difference in powder charges. I realize the cast bullet will generate less pressure, but I am surprised to see that it is that much different. Even the old Lyman 46th shows max loads with IMR of 20.5 wit 155 gr cast, and 19.5gr with 168gr cast. Any comments from the peanut gallery?
    Last edited by hornady308; 03-12-2017 at 02:48 PM.

  2. #2
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    The different manuals were prepared by different people at different times using different lots of powder and different guns. Why should we expect them to agree exactly. Always start with minimum loads and work your way up till you are satisfied, and don't expect me to accept your final load as safe in my gun unless I work it up myself.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master hornady308's Avatar
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    I don't expect all the experts to have the same exact conclusions, but there's a significant difference between a max load of 19.5 gr vs a max load of 27 gr. That's a 72℅ difference in max.! The start charge in the RCBS manual is higher than the max Hodgdon charge. How can they be that far apart?

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    Boolit Master northmn's Avatar
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    What are the cases and primers used to form the cases? There can be a big difference in loads on just cases. Loading manuals drive me nuts anyway.

    DEP

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    Back in the day, when the 357Herrett was very popular with hunters and steel critter shooters, there were some VERY stiff loads published. Dupont(IMR) did some pressure testing and published their list of LAB TESTED loads, and they were much lower than the "normal" ;loads worked up by shooters with no pressure test equipment. I will have to look for my IMR data for the 357H to see what they showed for IMR4227, but I load IMR 4198 as that was the best power/pressure ratio from their testing. To my knowledge the IMR data was the first (maybe only at the time) pressure tested data for the Herrets. Those 27 gr type, "worked up" loads, stretched a lot of TC frames! Basically Dupont found that rifle powders in the 4198 realm worked better in the mini rifle cartridges, and the mag pistol powders did not yield the velocities desired until the pressures were above the TC Contender's design limits (roughly 40,00CUP with the 30-30 head size). Those pressures can be exceeded with smaller case heads, like 223 but we are talking 30-30 head size. Also *note* that IMR4227 and H4227 were(are??) NOT the same powder, different load data even when pressures were listed.
    Last edited by rking22; 03-14-2017 at 10:44 PM. Reason: added note, fixed typos
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by hornady308 View Post
    How can they be that far apart?
    Post 5 explains it. Some of the loads were not pressure tested and others were.

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    Boolit Master hornady308's Avatar
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    Thanks for the responses. I'll certainly stick with the more conservative data, but I'm still surprised that the manuals can be so different. The 357 Herrett uses the 30-30 Winchester case. The 30-30 is shortened, then necked up to accept a .357 bullet. The idea was to create a cartridge that would be extremely efficient when used in a 10" barrel.

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    Exactly , and it was. The 35 Rem was able to go a little faster but used more powder to do it. Deers nor steel critters could tell the difference, but the 35Rem recoiled harder in my hand. Actually the 357Max is probably the better nowadays, but I still like the nostalgia of the Herretts.

    Also *note* that IMR4227 and H4227 were(are??) NOT the same powder, different load data even when pressures were listed in other cartridges.
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

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    Look at AA's load data . . .

    Note it is with LP primer . . . Big difference in loading data when one does things like that
    Nothing is impossible for the person that does not have to do it.

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