Titan ReloadingWisconsin TriggerRotoMetals2Graf & Sons
MidSouth Shooters SupplyLee PrecisionStainLess Steel MediaInline Fabrication

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 29 of 29

Thread: .22 rimfire case reforming

  1. #21
    I don't believe the ILRCO round ever reached the market. Winchester made it on the request of the Illinois Arms Company, who had designed an automatic carbine with an enormous drum magazine around the .22LR cartridge length, and found that outside lubrication made it too prone to stoppages. I think they pinned their main hopes on a full auto version for law enforcement, and it is hard to think of a law that that exactly fits. Even in an exceedingly violent riot, there are always going to be a few journalists or Ivy League sightseers in the crowd.

    Although the .22WCF is usually considered obsolete, CCI made some not long ago. At a guess it would be expensive and hard to find. They loaded it with a jacketed bullet although they claimed only 1300ft./sec., and said it wasn't recommended for pistols as a result, since they often had tighter bore dimensions. That seems curious logic. I can remember when Eley High Velocity .22LR, in the 60s, claimed a muzzle velocity of 1400ft./sec. with a 40gr. solid or 37gr. hollow point bullet of conventional LR design. Their claimed velocity has since reduced, and I don't know whether it was a genuine design change or driven by the introduction of the hobby-priced chronograph. But the original version was barely detectably inferior in accuracy, with the Brno .22 sporter I bought in 1970, to the target rounds they still sell around the world. I can't see why CCI needed to go jacketed, which possibly killed the chances of manufacturers bring out new .22WRF firearms.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Missouri Ozarks
    Posts
    1,133
    The 22 LR and the 22 WMR do not use the same size bullet. The 22 WMR is larger in diameter and the 22 LR uses a heeled bullet. They are close enough that the larger bullet will pass through the smaller barrel but the smaller 22 LR bullet would be a lose fit that might or might not expand enough to obturate. Furthermore but its shorter bearing length would probably reduce its accuracy as could yaw while still in the barrel.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Central Wisconisn
    Posts
    770
    The 22wmr bullet is .224". The 22 long rifle bullet is from .223" to .2255" That would put the 22WMR diameter squarely in the mid range of 22lr. There are several differences in the bullets themselves though. The LR uses a rebated hollow base bullet. It is rebated because the case of the 22lr is the same diameter as the bearing surface of the bullet. The 22lr is greased or externally lubricated. because the bearing surface has to be lubricated. The 22WMR is not rebated because the case is larger than the bullet allowing the whole bullet to fit into the case. It is also not greased or externally lubricated because the bearing surface is inside the case (and so is the lube) Other wise they are the same diameter and same weight. As I swage fro the 22lr it is easy enough to change my dies to make the 22WMR bullets from the same nose portion of the die. I only need to change the base punch to not create the rebated portion. It is actually much easier to make a 22WMR bullet than it is to make a 22lr bullet for that reason. I also powder coat the bullets. Creating a bullet that needs no lube either interior of exterior. Here is a picture of some of my rejected swaged bullets for the 22lr. You can see the rebated area of the bullets. That is not necessary in the 22WMR. All I have to do is continue the same larger size diameter all the way to the heel and presto I have the right shape and size for the 22WMR.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMGP1641.jpg 
Views:	24 
Size:	37.7 KB 
ID:	191023

    Quote Originally Posted by BAGTIC View Post
    The 22 LR and the 22 WMR do not use the same size bullet. The 22 WMR is larger in diameter and the 22 LR uses a heeled bullet. They are close enough that the larger bullet will pass through the smaller barrel but the smaller 22 LR bullet would be a lose fit that might or might not expand enough to obturate. Furthermore but its shorter bearing length would probably reduce its accuracy as could yaw while still in the barrel.
    Jedediah Morse
    "To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them.".







  4. #24
    Yes, Traffer is right. The difference in bullet diameter is very slight, and it is the case diameter that is different. The .22LR bullet is more tolerant of being reduced by slightly tighter bore dimension, and often is, because of its softness and the reduced base being less likely to suffer asymmetrical finning. But that is once the bullet starts to move.

    Various manufacturers have made dry lubed, non-tacky .22LR rounds, which begs the question why they aren't all like that. I am not sure whether powder coating etc. would give the highest target-shooting accuracy, or enough rapid fire, especially with high velocity rounds, to heat the bore surface. But I am pretty sure its advantages are worthwhile for the average sporting shooter.

  5. #25
    Boolit Bub dhenry132's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Republic of Texas
    Posts
    32
    I do it for fun

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3,002
    I have reloaded the .22 WMR after a fashion. I have a 640K Mossberg in that caliber and its accuracy is fairly erratic with different factory rounds.

    I can normally get decent groups at 50 yards but never really good groups at 100 meters.

    I pulled the heavily crimped Winchester 40 grain FMJ bullets using a shell holder center hole to give full rim support.

    Then I resized the neck followed by expanding it with a long tapered expander. The long tapered expander allowed me to adjust the amount of expansion by varying the depth.

    Then I replaced the original powder charge and loaded either 40 grn Sierra Hornet or 45 Grn Sierra Hornet bullets.

    At this point I tinkered with the seating depth.

    If you examine the SAAMI ammo and chamber drawings you will find that the chambers are pretty large and sloppy for the ammo.
    Both the chamber diameter and the length to the lands can be much bigger/longer than the factory ammo.

    So I loaded the Sierra bullets longer than factory ammo. I got groups significantly better with the Sierra bullets but I feel a custom match grade chamber reamer is needed to deliver best accuracy.
    In addition the 40 grain bullet expanded the case much the same as factory ammo. The heavier 45 grain bullet caused about .003 more expansion of the case ahead of the rim.

    My rifle has one turn in 16" twist rifling and at times gave decent accuracy with most lighter 22 WMR bulleted ammo. However the Federal 50 grain lead bullet round gave awful accuracy with most 100 meter groups in the 3.5" range.

    To pursue this I thought about a match grade action and barrel with a match quality chamber. To use a factory rifle with the SAAMI chamber would potentially be a huge time waster since you would be battling the sloppy chamber. Pulling bullets, resizing the cases and reseating the bullets takes a significant investment in both money and time for shootable amounts of ammo.
    EDG

  7. #27
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Central Wisconisn
    Posts
    770
    22LR are crimped heavily. In the book "Ammunition Making" by George E Frost, in chapter 12 titled "The 22 Match Cartridge" Frost explains that the crimp "Pull Weight" is critical with modern powders. He and his guys developed match grade 22lr with 45 to 50 lbs of crimp pull weight. Meaning it takes 45 to 50 lbs to pull the bullet from the case. Because modern powder needs compression to burn properly, the bullets must be tight enough to begin that pressure while still in the shell. I have built a crimp weight tester so I can replicate that consistent heavy crimp. I believe that the 22WMR would have the same requirement. Hence the very hard to pull bullets. I am in the process of swaging and powder coating bullets for the 22lr. Once I get the process nailed down I am going to start reloading 22WMR. Concerning the 50 grain bullets you mention, I just read somewhere that the heavy bullets will not fly straight with 1/16 twist. It takes a 1/12 or tighter to get good flight on the heavier bullets.

    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    I have reloaded the .22 WMR after a fashion. I have a 640K Mossberg in that caliber and its accuracy is fairly erratic with different factory rounds.

    I can normally get decent groups at 50 yards but never really good groups at 100 meters.

    I pulled the heavily crimped Winchester 40 grain FMJ bullets using a shell holder center hole to give full rim support.

    Then I resized the neck followed by expanding it with a long tapered expander. The long tapered expander allowed me to adjust the amount of expansion by varying the depth.

    Then I replaced the original powder charge and loaded either 40 grn Sierra Hornet or 45 Grn Sierra Hornet bullets.

    At this point I tinkered with the seating depth.

    If you examine the SAAMI ammo and chamber drawings you will find that the chambers are pretty large and sloppy for the ammo.
    Both the chamber diameter and the length to the lands can be much bigger/longer than the factory ammo.

    So I loaded the Sierra bullets longer than factory ammo. I got groups significantly better with the Sierra bullets but I feel a custom match grade chamber reamer is needed to deliver best accuracy.
    In addition the 40 grain bullet expanded the case much the same as factory ammo. The heavier 45 grain bullet caused about .003 more expansion of the case ahead of the rim.

    My rifle has one turn in 16" twist rifling and at times gave decent accuracy with most lighter 22 WMR bulleted ammo. However the Federal 50 grain lead bullet round gave awful accuracy with most 100 meter groups in the 3.5" range.

    To pursue this I thought about a match grade action and barrel with a match quality chamber. To use a factory rifle with the SAAMI chamber would potentially be a huge time waster since you would be battling the sloppy chamber. Pulling bullets, resizing the cases and reseating the bullets takes a significant investment in both money and time for shootable amounts of ammo.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    3,002
    I believe that the crimp is required to keep a .22 LR round from coming apart. To develop higher pressure you can easily add more powder without resorting to a crimp. You add more powder to do this with .22 LR except the resulting round would not withstand feeding in repeaters or being carried in your pockets.
    My first ever reload was a .22 LR that was pulled with my teeth when I was about 13 or 14. I pulled 2 rounds and dumped the powder from both into one case and fired it. '
    I can tell you for sure that it does not take 50 lbs to pull a .22 LR bullet.
    In addition me and thousands of bench rest shooters and BPCR shooters have been shooting top performing loads with no crimp for more than 1/2 century.
    Millions of rounds firing .224 caliber bullets have been fired in bench rest competition with no crimp. I see no reason why .22 LR ammo cannot be designed to work without a crimp other than the need to keep it assembled during handling, shipping and feeding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traffer View Post
    22LR are crimped heavily. In the book "Ammunition Making" by George E Frost, in chapter 12 titled "The 22 Match Cartridge" Frost explains that the crimp "Pull Weight" is critical with modern powders. He and his guys developed match grade 22lr with 45 to 50 lbs of crimp pull weight. Meaning it takes 45 to 50 lbs to pull the bullet from the case. Because modern powder needs compression to burn properly, the bullets must be tight enough to begin that pressure while still in the shell. I have built a crimp weight tester so I can replicate that consistent heavy crimp. I believe that the 22WMR would have the same requirement. Hence the very hard to pull bullets. I am in the process of swaging and powder coating bullets for the 22lr. Once I get the process nailed down I am going to start reloading 22WMR. Concerning the 50 grain bullets you mention, I just read somewhere that the heavy bullets will not fly straight with 1/16 twist. It takes a 1/12 or tighter to get good flight on the heavier bullets.
    EDG

  9. #29
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Central Wisconisn
    Posts
    770
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/8hywqq6isi...9-146.jpg?dl=0



    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    I believe that the crimp is required to keep a .22 LR round from coming apart. To develop higher pressure you can easily add more powder without resorting to a crimp. You add more powder to do this with .22 LR except the resulting round would not withstand feeding in repeaters or being carried in your pockets.
    My first ever reload was a .22 LR that was pulled with my teeth when I was about 13 or 14. I pulled 2 rounds and dumped the powder from both into one case and fired it. '
    I can tell you for sure that it does not take 50 lbs to pull a .22 LR bullet.
    In addition me and thousands of bench rest shooters and BPCR shooters have been shooting top performing loads with no crimp for more than 1/2 century.
    Millions of rounds firing .224 caliber bullets have been fired in bench rest competition with no crimp. I see no reason why .22 LR ammo cannot be designed to work without a crimp other than the need to keep it assembled during handling, shipping and feeding.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Ammunition Making (Frost)-146.jpg 
Views:	15 
Size:	62.0 KB 
ID:	196777   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Ammunition Making1 (Frost)-146.jpg 
Views:	14 
Size:	61.2 KB 
ID:	196778  

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check