45-70, 8mm Lebel, 30-40 Krag: sleeved/fireformed to 43 Beaumont-part 2 (cont'd)

[CaptainCrossman]

in the first thread, what started out as 45-70 sleeved/fireformed to 43 Beaumont, morphed into 8mm Lebel fireformed to 43 Beaumont...along with 43 Spanish and other vintage 11mm shells being cut off/fireformed as well. it wasn't planned that way, just sort of happened as I ran into some very cheap vintage 8mm Lebel ammo, and started cleaning out my old shell collection to do test fires with it.

truth be told, the most promising of them all was the 8mm Lebel case to 43 Beaumont, it fireformed nearly perfect on the first shot, just being a bit short on case length- and it didn't have to be sleeved like the 45-70, eliminating the need to buy brass tubing, cut it to size, and put it over the case. the downside was, the Lebel case was milsurp and Berdan primed, the primers were bad, and had to be drilled/converted to shotgun primers to fireform.

I'm starting this 2nd thread because the original thread doesn't mention 8mm Lebel in the title, and it's very relevant. If I was going to start off again from a clean slate, it would be with boxer primed 8mm Lebel brass, loaded with 16gr Trail Boss powder, and fireformed in the 43 Beaumont rifle with 8mm bullets. No sleeving. It would be the quickest, easiest way to make 43 Beaumont brass IMHO, and requires no dies. Lebel brass is 76 cents each at Midway USA, status "backorder ok" meaning they will get more.

the 348 Winchester cartridge would probably do equally well- but the 348 being so far upscale from the 43 Beaumont, the brass is generally much more valuable to someone with a M71 lever gun, than a Dutch Beaumont rifle.

looking over some other rimmed cases that may fireform easily to 43 Beaumont, the 30-40 Krag came to mind. downside, it's longer and would have to be trimmed quite a bit. I've had a few Krag rifles, and still have one sporter Krag w/open sights, along with some loaded ammo, brass, and dies in 30-40.

In this thread I'm going to fireform both the sleeved 45-70 and 8mm Lebel brass a 2nd time with no tape, to get it to fully fireform to the chamber, and finish those tests. then fire the one old unmarked case, and other Lebel case- both of which didn't fire the first time, due to bad primers.

Later, my goal is to load up 1 round each of 348 Winchester and 30-40 Krag brass in a similar fashion, i.e. 16gr Trail Boss and the original 348 and 30 cal. bullets, and fireform them in the Beaumont rifle. While the 30-40 Krag brass isn't quite as upscale as 348 Winchester brass, it still falls in the category of "it should really be saved for a Krag chambered rifle", and not ruined to use in a Beaumont. But it won't hurt to try one round of each to see what happens in the Beaumont.

again, I don't hold this rifle to my shoulder and look down the barrel on any fireform experiments like this. I value my eyes and face and life, way more than that. They'll be fired with a 50 foot long string, with the rifle tied to the bench. Once the brass truly fireforms to the chamber to provide a reliable gas seal, only then will the rifle be shouldered when that brass is used again. I also learned, that any old brass from turn of century or older time period, should not ever be fired from the shoulder. The antique brass is brittle, and even when used in the correct sized chamber, may split and spew gas back towards the shooters' face. So far every single old brass case from late 1800's-early 1900's has split badly, even after being annealed first. There is only one of those cases left, one that didn't fire due to bad primer, and had no case head stamp- that one will also be fired today.

[CaptainCrossman]

here's the test shots for today

left to right:
8mm Lebel case, fireformed once previously, shotgun primer- this time no tape
(2) sleeved 45-70 shells, fireformed once previously- this time no tape
early blackpowder 11mm case, no headstamp, previously DNF- converted to shotgun primer
8mm Lebel case, previously DNF- converted to shotgun primer

the ones loaded with 45 cal. cast bullets, are using 265 grain pistol bullets again.
main goal is fireform the first 3 cases, to fully expand the lower section of the cases where the centering tape was used the first time.

eventually will be doing a test, fireforming the first time with no centering tape, to see how far off kilter the shell may get, if at all- because it would be advantageous to eliminate the centering tape in the first shot- and possibly yield a useable fireformed case from only one shot.

[justashooter]

8 lebel is also a good parent case for vetterli M70 11.4X38 R.

[CaptainCrossman]

whatever form of brain fade I succumbed to, who knows- but a 30-40 Krag will not work for 43 Beaumont.
loaded up a test shot of 348 Win. brass yesterday, that will chamber- did not fire it yet.
just tried today, 5 minutes ago, to drop a 30-40 Krag loaded round in the chamber of the Beaumont, if falls down about an inch into the chamber, rim and all...rim won't even headspace on the chamber mouth.
must have been looking at the wrong rim diameter spec ?
so.....correction- KRAG BRASS IDEA NO GOOD-MY BAD-MY WRONG. nix that idea, don't even go there.
the rim diameter on a Krag .540"-.545" is too small for a Beaumont chamber. it falls down inside the barrel about an inch or more.

[CaptainCrossman]

8 lebel is also a good parent case for vetterli M70 11.4X38 R.

thanks for info

[CaptainCrossman]

got around to firing a few more test shots...
all were loaded with 16 grains Trail Boss
left to right:
348 Winchster R-P brass, w/200 grain bullet, not annealed- split badly
early turn of century 11mm brass, cut off, with shotgun primer- annealed- also split badly
8MM Lebel, converted to shotgun primer, military brass- first shot fireformed (w/factory 8mm bullet)
8MM Lebel, converted to shotgun primer, military brass- second time firing w/265 grain cast lead bullet

a few observations:
348 brass that is not annealed, will probably split. that's a lot of expansion to take without first being annealed. I'm going to try one more annealed 348 shell, to see what happens then.
early turn of century brass- even though annealed very well- still split- it's just too brittle. it also pushed out the primer on this one.
first shot on the 8MM Lebel, this was the one that had a bad primer first time- fireformed good
second shot on the other 8MM Lebel, it's starting to draw at the base just like a 303 British does after being fired many times. the case is still short and is now 1.948", so it grew another .008" at 2nd firing. I've had a 6.5 Jap do the same thing due to sloppy military chambers in the Jap Type 38 rifles. it may not be a serious issue because the Lebel brass is very thick there. (rimmed cases to exhibit this phenom after many firings). I may continue firing these 2 Lebel brass cases to see when/if they actually separate at the base or not- and how many shots that takes to happen.

you don't see the sleeved 45-70 cases in the mix- that's cuz I got into a batch of NOS old primers, that failed to fire ! large rifle primers. so those 2 have to be taken apart, and re-primed with good primers.

[CaptainCrossman]

some closeups- the 348 Win brass, and early turn of century annealed brass w/pushed out primer

[CaptainCrossman]

now the 8MM Lebel brass, shows the most promise so far. Getting this brass with boxer primers, you're in. brass life is the next big question. (?) it also extracted/ejected flawlessly in the Beaumont rifle.

once fired w/centering tape and 8mm bullet, left shell. twice fired with no tape and 45 cal. bullet, right shell.

[smkummer]

I have an Egyptian Rem. Roller and this post appeals to me. I will keep my eye out for boxer 8mm Lebel cases.