Area's/ Items of discovery to be aware of in the technique of Paper Patching.

[OverMax]

What problematic discovery's in the technique of Paper Patching have you incurred & resolved that may or will inhibit another's success?

Please feel free to Thread those experiences. (i.e. Tip/s: given to fellow Patch'ers)

[Digital Dan]

None really. I read Paul Matthews' book and followed his instruction.

[NoAngel]

Accepting the fact that you're not going to get it exactly right the first go 'round will help a lot. I read a lot here and elsewhere before starting and I just told myself the first batch was GOING to be junk. They weren't junk but they were nothing like what I can roll now. Trial and error. Nice thing about PP is if they don't turn out like you want, it's only paper. Peel that stuff off and go again.

Patience is the most critical tool you will need.

[ShooterAZ]

The first thing to overcome was trying to digest all the info in this sub-forum. Obviously there is a lot of ways to skin the cat. Learning what diameter to size my slugs before patching, and the proper paper to use was most important.

Buying a paper cutter and proper PP molds and the appropriate sizers certainly helped me a bunch. Rolling is the easy part for me. Developing a template and getting consistent patches was a work in progress.

All in all, just do it. Yes, there's a learning curve with it. It's been fun though, and well worth the effort.

[OverMax]

Early on I discovered it is very easy to tear a patch in the Seating process and not notice. Too much cartridge neck tension and/or a sharp edge on a neck opening causing shearing/shaving or roughing of paper even in a slight way. Are the primary culprits to a not so accurate rifles shooting.

[ShooterAZ]

In my Rem 700 30-06 I am using fired, un-sized cases for my paper patching. I have noticed that the case necks are expanding with each subsequent firing (no surprise there). Using once fired cases, I need to final size my patched slugs to .310 to fit the case mouth without tearing the patch. The second and third time around using the very same cases, I size to .311. After that, no final sizing is required. I just patch and shoot. The patched slugs are a perfect slip fit into the case necks.

[OverMax]

So I've read todays rifles are different in chamber bored than history's pasts which were adapted so to shoot patched boolits. Anyone know what the difference is?

[Nobade]

So I've read todays rifles are different in chamber bored than history's pasts which were adapted so to shoot patched boolits. Anyone know what the difference is?

Original Sharps and some Remington rifles were chambered to shoot only ammo loaded with black powder and bullets patched up to bore diameter. But that's nothing to concern yourself with in the smokeless patching room. You can't use smokeless to bump bullets, so it doesn't apply. That said, some chambers work better with PP than others and some cartridges work better. From my own work with it, I have decided large tapered throats like normal 8X57 or .303 have are the most difficult to get to work well. Not that it can't be done, but it takes more work to get there. Modern target type throats are the easiest, provided they are of sufficient diameter to allow a patched bullet to fit and not get torn up, and be groove diameter or bigger at the same time. Some, like the very long throats in Weatherby rifles, just happen to work quite well as long as your bullet is long enough to both engage the rifling and still be in the case. Almost like breech seating at that point. Also, lower pressure cartridges are easier to deal with than very high pressure ones. You almost can't go wrong with the 45-70, nearly anything you feed it will shoot well. But try something like a 300 win mag, and you'll be trying all sorts of combinations before you get it to really work well.

-Nobade

[barrabruce]

So I've read todays rifles are different in chamber bored than history's pasts which were adapted so to shoot patched boolits. Anyone know what the difference is?

Basically there are many and varied.
Old timers could be a long gentle taper from the outside diameter of the case mouth to anything with an abrupt end of the case into the rifling.
The later was pp chambering I believe.
You would usually breach seat the bore + thou or so bullet into the rifling followed by the case load of black with a lubed wad in the mouth.

I think the older guns had more gentler tapers than the modern hard angles and "ball seats" of today guns in general.

Hope it helps.

Looking at sammi specs of chamber can tell you a few things.
Alot of stuff varied greatly before Standards ...but I think they kept some complete dogs breakfast of some chamberings for std sammi specs.

Take the 30-30 for example. I'll just extend the case neck longer and call that freebore.

Ghee thanks fellas

[OverMax]

Amazing the information that can be read here on Cast Boolits P/P'ing. You guys are light years ahead on me on this subject of chamber and tapered free bore. Even so I'm sure I and others really appreciate the knowledge.

A new trick I recently discovered.
My spit patches on trying to get started move around annoyingly in-between my thumbs and many times I have to restart over and over until I manage to get them to go straight. So I now roll my patch's close to the nose of its bullet. With the tail untwisted I push the bullet up into its patch while still wet with a pencil point exposing the the bullets nose and side wall. Pushing the boolit up & up a little at a time to the proper height /length I want the patch to be. Doing this technique not only eliminates the problem of patch start placement. It also tightens the patch wrap and eliminates wrinkles.

[Nobade]

Try a cigarette roller. you don't use the belt, just the rollers. Makes it really easy.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

[barrabruce]

When I first started I aimed to get maximum stretch on my papers.
Now after several years I have changed to a more relaxed tightness.
I now just roll them a turn or two more on the board if my patch ends don't butt up.

By wiping the patch over surface of the water on one side the patch will naturally curl up and makes wrapping easier.
You don't need expensive hard to find rag paper made in 1893 to work with smokeless.
If you have a life time supply more power to you.

My best advice is to "try all" methods and see what you and your gun likes the best.

Not all guns respond the same way.

I get better accuracy out of pp than jacketed...my guns a bit on the loose side of std specs.

Don't be afraid of failure and don't let the b@^$t@^ds get you down.

[country gent]

A lot of the original PP chambers were smaller by a few thousandths in the "neck area to allow for the bore dia bullet. These chambers would seldom chamber a jacketed or grease grooved bullet in the case neck. Ammo was fixed most of the time Shutzen and some target shooters used breech seating and 1 case for a match. Paper patched chambers for the bore riders had very little to no throat, usually it was around 2*-10* right of the case mouth of the chamber. Throats weren't needed as the bullet was bore dia or bore dia +.001 and slid into the barrel. A lot of the PP were only seated 1/8"-3/16" into the case and slid into the bore to center them.
The first wrapping sessions will be the hardest until the technique is learned and fingers are trained. Cutting patches is easier with a template or cutting board and fences for it. Saw one pamphlet that showed using dividers and protractor to cut patches, it works and is accurate also slow and tedious. I have a rolling cutter board set up with a fence for width and length of patch along with a guide for the angled ends. I cut strips to needed width then tape down the angled guide and set fence to length and cut 5-7 strips at a time. Quick easy and accurate. Another trick is to use a patching board to roll with this sets the bullet and patch in the correct relationshiop to each other.

[Digital Dan]

You can't use smokeless to bump bullets, so it doesn't apply.

Seems to be a common tenet of the art, but my experience with patched pure lead and full charges of smokeless say otherwise. Wasn't planning on it from the outset, or expecting it, but it happens 100% of the time with my combo(s).

[Nobade]

What kind of powder? I have had limited success getting Trailboss to bump lead, but not any others. I could see it working as you describe, using pure lead. The pressure is certainly high enough to do it but I haven't gotten it to make a fast enough seal to prevent gas cutting and let the powder build enough pressure. Getting a smokeless load using a bullet patched to bore diameter to work would be quite interesting.

-Nobade

[Digital Dan]

Current load for a 77/44 is 18.0 L'il Gun, LRP and a 300 grain chunk of .422" diameter patched with 2 wraps of 9# Onion Skin to .430". Max load and not bashful either.

My evidence, such as it is, comes from the difference in engraving impressions in one that is used to slug the bore and one that has been fired. There is no question whatsoever the bullet bumps up to fill the "voids" and the paper residue, such as it is, very severely compressed. Starts at .002" thickness and winds up in the sub .001" range. Mostly looks like fine confetti, but now and then there's a piece large enough to toy with.

[Nobade]

Thanks for the info. No doubt that load would work and certainly be effective! However, it's not quite what I was talking about. What I meant was loading smokeless like you do black powder, with bullets patched to bore size. For example, my 45-70. Bullets start out at .442", and are patched to .450". Barrel is .450" x .458". This works well with black powder, but I have not been able to get smokeless to work without leaking past the bullet and gas cutting it. Actually, I have to recant - Blackhorn 209 will do this. But there is some disagreement on whether that is smokeless or black powder. Kind of both. But if a good smokeless load could be found that will reliably bump bullets patched to bore diameter, it would change the smokeless muzzle loader scene considerably. Currently you need either a sabot or to make pre-engraved bullets to get it to work. A lot of folks would love to be able to load their smokeless muzzleloaders like you can with black powder, but I am not aware of anyone who has had success doing so yet. (with the exception of Trailboss. But the velocity is so low it is kind of pointless.)

-Nobade

[Digital Dan]

I understood your intent, but consider this: Obturation is not so much a matter of black and smokeless as it is peak pressure experienced by the bullet base and alloy bhn. It is a complex analysis to be sure and I seriously doubt there are any absolutes in the equation. One extreme with lead and moderate pressure is represented by my own experience and that of BP shooters. The other is found with smokeless and jacteted bullets which obturate as well, albeit in less profound fashion.

It it would be interesting to find out what comparison exists between peak chamber pressure and peak pressure on the bullet base.

[Lead pot]

Several years ago I think in the 80's there was a write up on bullet obturation in Rifle or Hand Loaders, I don't remember for sure, but those where the magazines I used to get. They ran tests on jacketed bullets shot in high power rifle test barrels the jacketed bullets do show obturation shooting smokeless powder. There is no reason that a lead alloyed bullet will not do the same.
I have never done these tests my self measuring undamaged recovered bullets but maybe next winter I will see for myself if they will or not.

[Nobade]

No doubt the pressure is there to move lead with smokeless. It's the rise time. Smokeless isn't fast enough to make a seal before the gas starts blowing past the bullet and destroys it. Otherwise, patching to bore diameter with smokeless would work. It's easy to test, just make up some ammo like that and see what happens. There is a reason we all worry about making our bullets fat enough to fill the throat when we shoot smokeless and it is way less of a concern using black.

-Nobade