How do you manage?

[crankycalico]

I decided to hit the little pawn shop in town today, got slightly scared.

I found a genuine fabrique nationale of Belgium mauser, it had scope mounts on it so I couldn't see the rather interesting floral wreath crest. But it had been sporterized.

The jeweled bolt wasn't bad,, but the safety was an odd modification. It was the standard mauser safety but two position, straight up locked bolt and trigger, all the way to right let it fire and operate the bolt.

The barrel was stepped all the way, no caliber markings, the receiver itself looked as if it was a short action, and the seller claimed it was a 30-06.

They had two sporterized 1903 springfields, one a 2.5 million number and a 3.4 million. cheap one 700, pricey one 999$
Really massacred, only the action was original. Both had the horizontal win m70 safety and from im seeing it could cost almost half what the lesser of them cost. Although the expensive one had a stock very similar to a m14 or m1 garand.

How do you guys deal with finding guns reduced to shabby straits?

[Earlwb]

Don't buy them unless the guns are going for a really really low price.

[frkelly74]

If, as in the past, I find them for $100 plus or minus I get them as a new toy. At the time ,back then, the saying went, " an original military surplus in fine condition can be bought for $200 and then you improve it for another $200 and end up with a $100 rifle."You can put in your own numbers to keep up with the rate of inflation but the idea has some validity to it perhaps. And there are indeed exceptions.

[dverna]

I will not even bother with them. Makes more sense to buy a T/C Compass for $225 when they are on sale and have the rebate. Easy to mount a scope, can get a variety of calibers, easily scoped, accurate, and a warranty.

Mil slurps are for nostalgia or matches that require them.

[leebuilder]

I assess on condition as a whole or as usable parts for the price. Barrel condition is the biggest factor the rest I can fix or replace. Some times you just got to say no and walk away.
Mismatched rifles are a hit and miss and should be priced accordingly. Some rifles have a history ie specific build, it all boils down to the price you are willing to pay, and do your research.
Be well

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Lots of years ago one could buy a milsurp and make a nice hunting rifle from it. Today the factories produce better, less expensive rifles than you end up with after going through the sporterizing process, so it no longer makes economic sense. In addition, the "as-issued" milsurps become fewer each year and sporterizing them is becoming a desecration of history when ready-made rifles exist that will perform the same job and probably do it better.
However, for the hobbyist, there is still a lot of satisfaction to be had in taking a rifle that Bubba did his thing to, and either setting it right or finishing the job to a higher standard. Also, there's a lot to be learned in performing the tasks needed to make Bubba's rifle both presentable and useful. So, I look at each one I run across and say to myself, "Now what could I do with this one.....?

[gnoahhh]

Well said.

On a personal level, I still look at European milsurps as fair game for building custom rifles. It's their history not mine as far as I'm concerned. I don't venerate German Mausers that could've easily been used to try and kill my forebears. But that's a moot point due to the insane price levels they are attaining.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

In the 1950's and 60's, surplus rifles were in every department store and gas station. Mail order rifles cost $10-$35 and NOBODY CARED about collectables unless pristine in the Cosmolene new. New Marlin 336's were $65, Winchester 70 over $100, weekly wages, $100-$125. Rifles were tools to go hunting. The 1968 Firearms Act ( the start of it all) was supported by American firearms manufacturers to stop th influx of cheap military surplus. Woorying about whether a Savage 99 would be ruined as a collectable by adding sling swivels, a recoil pad and scope sights was considered none of any bodies business but the owners. If you don't like something DON'T BUY IT. Years ago the changes made somebody happy.

[Adam Helmer]

I decided to hit the little pawn shop in town today, got slightly scared.

I found a genuine fabrique nationale of Belgium mauser, it had scope mounts on it so I couldn't see the rather interesting floral wreath crest. But it had been sporterized.

The jeweled bolt wasn't bad,, but the safety was an odd modification. It was the standard mauser safety but two position, straight up locked bolt and trigger, all the way to right let it fire and operate the bolt.

The barrel was stepped all the way, no caliber markings, the receiver itself looked as if it was a short action, and the seller claimed it was a 30-06.

They had two sporterized 1903 springfields, one a 2.5 million number and a 3.4 million. cheap one 700, pricey one 999$
Really massacred, only the action was original. Both had the horizontal win m70 safety and from im seeing it could cost almost half what the lesser of them cost. Although the expensive one had a stock very similar to a m14 or m1 garand.

How do you guys deal with finding guns reduced to shabby straits?

cranky,

I bought my first military surplus rifle in 1958 for $13.88. That M38 Carcano in 7.35MM was not cheap enough even back then. I still have it and later bought better deer rifles of Mauser and Enfield flavors.

Back in the late 1950s and 1960s, many fine military arms were available in the $15-$25 range. Many deer hunters bought those rifles and had to make them lighter. Thus we had the hacksaw "Sporterization" of far too many fine military arms.

Just yesterday I was asked by a local FFL Licensee to help him identify and catalogue 20 or 25 "old army guns" an old guy brought in to be sold. ONLY 3 of the lot were as issued. The others were "butchered" by hacksaw and not too valuable. The worst case was an otherwise pristine VZ-24 8mm dated 1937 with a Jap 7.7 bolt jammed into the boltway! The next horror story was a 7.7MM Jap rifle with a wooded butt plate, fixed peep rear sight and rough overall appearance. It was a "Last Ditch" rifle that may be merely pot metal and I advised the dealer so.

A dozen rifles including U.S. Krags, M1903 Springfields, SMLEs and several Mausers were merely valuable as "Parts Guns" in my opinion. None were worth more than $75-$100 of my money. We should have banned hacksaws back in 1960!

Adam

[crankycalico]

cranky,

I bought my first military surplus rifle in 1958 for $13.88. That M38 Carcano in 7.35MM was not cheap enough even back then. I still have it and later bought better deer rifles of Mauser and Enfield flavors.

Back in the late 1950s and 1960s, many fine military arms were available in the $15-$25 range. Many deer hunters bought those rifles and had to make them lighter. Thus we had the hacksaw "Sporterization" of far too many fine military arms.

Just yesterday I was asked by a local FFL Licensee to help him identify and catalogue 20 or 25 "old army guns" an old guy brought in to be sold. ONLY 3 of the lot were as issued. The others were "butchered" by hacksaw and not too valuable. The worst case was an otherwise pristine VZ-24 8mm dated 1937 with a Jap 7.7 bolt jammed into the boltway! The next horror story was a 7.7MM Jap rifle with a wooded butt plate, fixed peep rear sight and rough overall appearance. It was a "Last Ditch" rifle that may be merely pot metal and I advised the dealer so.

A dozen rifles including U.S. Krags, M1903 Springfields, SMLEs and several Mausers were merely valuable as "Parts Guns" in my opinion. None were worth more than $75-$100 of my money. We should have banned hacksaws back in 1960!

Adam

some of those old vintages are impossible to get replacement parts for, short of having a machine shop do custom work.

Its a real loss of history when it happens. Regardless of what side it fought on, and regardless of how that nation feels about themselves or their pasts.

Sure it might have been FUN cutting that arisaka sniper rifle with 3 foot barrel down into a nice handy 18 inch carbine back in 1953, but finding an arisaka sniper now is gonna burn you to nearly 2000.

They just have a reassuring effect, those old rifles. Millions of men, American and otherwise, have spent thousands of hours clutching these rifles while they waited out shell barrages or waited till the next hourly march across a half mile of shell holes under machine gun fire.

[Peregrine]

How do you guys deal with finding guns reduced to shabby straits?

I pour a stiff drink, then hold my rifles close and tell that that it's okay, they're safe with me.

[richhodg66]

Once in a while, I run across a sporterized milsurp that is a good deal. I picked up a well done '93 Mauser in 7x57 this past year that has quickly endeared itself to me. I really like the dimensions and handling characteristics of it and it's a good shooter with cast.

I also bought a nicely sporterized Krag, very nice rifle, but more money than that 7x57, I'd still do it again. The argument that I could have bought one of the super cheapies available at Wal Mart now doesn't cut it for me. B-O-R-I-N-G and besides, a good sporter just feels better to me than the tupperware jobs, but to each his own.

[Petrol & Powder]

The days of the good military surplus rifles are all but over.
Der Gebirgsjager captured the situation perfectly in his post, the inexpensive decent ones are gone and the un-molested originals are too historic now to modify. Every once in a while you'll run across a sporterized rifle that wasn't too butchered but those are rarely worth the cost compared to a new rifle.

[Texas by God]

Sportered Mausers draw me like a moth to a flame. I want to see what was done and how well it was done and like DG- what can I do with this?

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[ShooterAZ]

Some of the sporterized milsurp rifles done in the 1930's, 40's and even the 50's are a work of art (think sportered 1903 Springfields). I mean the true gunsmith examples. Once in a blue moon they pop up, and the workmanship on some of them is second to none. No, they don't retain collector value as an original, but I admire them just the same.

[RED BEAR]

military surplus used to be for people like me that couldn't afford a new rifle i can't count the guns i have bought from 19 to under 100 dollars . now they cost more than a new rifle. i guess my days of mil surplus are long since past. and as a kicker instead of new unissued condition that most of what i used to buy most now are pretty much jun k. saw an 8mm mauser the other day in a gun store wanted 500 for it and barrel looked like they used salt water to clean it.

[crankycalico]

Some of the best engineering and manufacturing went into these military rifles. They may not seem like much today, but when you have that enfield, springfiend, nagant, mauser in hand you have something.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I've heard that a Chinese curse goes: "May you live in interesting times." But some of us have lived through interesting gun-times. A bit before my time, WW II cut off almost all civilian rifles as the machining time was needed to produce weapons for the war effort. After the war there were only a relative few models available such as the Win. '94. The surplus rifles came flooding in to fill the void at very reasonable prices. My first high power rifle was a Lee Enfield No. I Mk. III* obtained at age 14 in 1956. It served very well to down my first buck with a 215 gr. Peters .303 British round. I still have it, unaltered. Over the years some Bubba-ized specimens came may way, and those I couldn't restore I turned into very decent sporters.
Attachment 232996 Attachment 232991
My first. A rescued rifle.

As the years passed and the production of civilian rifles increased, and the price of military surplus arms increased, as did the cost of sporterizing them, the milsurps became less desirable. But like you've already noted, just in different words, no military sends it's soldiers off to fight with what they consider to be an inferior arm. They were made to withstand the rigors of battle and weather, and millions of men used them to good effect in countless battles. The designs were the best available for the times.

One can not say, however, that a sporterized milsurp is always the equal of or superior to a factory made sporter. It depends almost entirely on who did the work, what their level of gunsmithing knowledge and skill was, and the materials used. Sporterizing military rifles almost became a fad, with every tinkerer working on one in their basement. Some of the old time gunsmiths were true masters of their art, creating rifles that were/are accurate and beautiful; while others, not so skilled, made things that were dangerous. There-in lies the problem, being able to tell the difference.

Someone commented in another thread that they would shun any Mauser that was a pre-1898 model. I try to avoid being confrontational, and didn't reply, but they represent some of the finest rifles ever made. Even today their fit, finish, and craftsmanship is unsurpassed in 95% of all modern firearms. As for their design being unsafe, there is always a fool that can be counted to overcome the built-in safety measures of any design. Look at John Browning's 1911 as an example. Originally made with a thumb safety, a grip safety, and a safety notch in the hammer, but after many years of common use someone decided that it just had to have a firing pin safety. But fools still manage to accidentally shoot themselves or other folks with them, because it isn't the weapon but operator error. Doing stupid things usually brings about stupid results.

About 15 years ago I became very interested in Krag rifles, and encountered somewhat the same situation -- just from an earlier era when Krags were plentiful and cheap. Today they are much more expensive than when I started buying and tinkering with them, but I seemed to hit the trough of the wave and prices were down and chopped guns plentiful. I probably purchased two dozen of them, one here and there, one at a time, mostly off the internet. All had been "gunsmithed" to one degree or another, and probably the most common thing was the addition of a pistol grip to the straight
wrist of the stock. There were all levels of workmanship, from very crude to "almost looks like it was made that way." On some, the visible joint of the added and shaped piece of wood forming the pistol grip had been nicely disguised with good checkering, some looking very pieced in. You could observe a lot of different skill levels in the work. The ones I disliked the most had pipe wrench marks on the barrels.
Attachment 232994 Attachment 232995
Some "befores" Some "afters"

Is there a point to this, or is it just reminiscing? Just rambling along, I guess. I agree that there is something substantial about a milsurp sporter, and when you're sitting under a tree waiting for Bambi to amble down the trail you have something interesting to look at and speculate about. I have two nicely done Springfields, one each '03 and '03-A3, plus more of other types, and usually use them in preference to some of the very nice factory made rifles I possess. But it's pretty much nostalgia, because only a few of them can shoot as well as most of today's newly made off-the-shelf rifles. If I would have been born 10 years later, today I'd probably be a big AR fan; but as it is, I kind of lost interest in moving much beyond walnut and blue steel for personal use and possession.

[Texas by God]

That Lee sporter is nice, DG. You're overrun with Krags it seems though. What a problem to have!

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[uscra112]

Some of the sporterized milsurp rifles done in the 1930's, 40's and even the 50's are a work of art (think sportered 1903 Springfields). I mean the true gunsmith examples. Once in a blue moon they pop up, and the workmanship on some of them is second to none. No, they don't retain collector value as an original, but I admire them just the same.

DITTO. I'd rather have one of those than a cookie-cutter original any day. Thankfully the collectors (so far) have left them alone, although something marked Niedner or Griffin & Howe will bring premium $$.

----------------------

The origin of the sporterized milsurp goes back deep into the Depression. Was a time when the government was selling Krags mailorder for $3.50, and Trapdoors for $1.75. (Plus postage) Those became the poor man's hunting rifles. Frequent articles published in The Rifleman about how to modify them. It was that or get by with Grandpa's old shot-out smokepole. Krags in particular were popular for conversion to the early high-pressure .22 varmint calibers, like .22 Lovell and the .22 Hornet. I've even got one in .219 Zipper.