Graf & SonsTitan ReloadingWisconsin TriggerInline Fabrication
Lee PrecisionRotoMetals2StainLess Steel MediaMidSouth Shooters Supply

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 41

Thread: am i missing something

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
    runfiverun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    27,103

    am i missing something

    recently I have been taking my weight swaged cores and jackets and heating them up until the lead melts in the jacket.

    now I don't know if this is bonding the core to the jacket or not.
    it looks like I am on about 95% of them but out of a batch of 500 or so I have about 5-6 that the core slides in the jacket.
    the alloy of the core is 1-1.5% antimony and no tin.
    I'm getting a good consistent scaling on the jacket which cleans up in the pin tumbler easy enough.
    I'm also getting close to 700-f with the little tool I made and the heating element.
    it's also fitting the core to the jacket better [better fill out] than core seating alone.

    do I need to add something like a paste flux to the jacket?
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

    hardcase54's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    268
    Without flux you are just melting the lead not bonding (soldering) core to the jacket.
    I swage .224, 6mm, 7mm, .308, 9mm, .40, .429.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
    alfloyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northern Utah
    Posts
    610
    A little tin will help the core bond to the jacket. They both must be clean of oil or other contaminants.

    Lafaun
    Just staying at home and playing with multi-color boolits.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

    Hickory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    The Great Black Swamp of North West Ohio
    Posts
    3,092
    I would use flux designed for electronics or use Corbin's flux. Apply a very light coating of flux to the inside of the jacket with a Q-tip.
    If you're using rim fire cases for jackets the only problem you might have is when you put the tip on the bullet, the jacket may collapse from having too much heat being applied, over annealing the brass resulting in rings around the shank of the bullet.
    Political correctness is a national suicide pact.

    I am a sovereign individual, accountable
    only to God and my own conscience.

  5. #5
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Australia Philippines (Good)
    Posts
    131
    Add tin, flux and i wash it all in baking soda afterwards

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    708
    Flux, flux, flux, flux. Be it acid or rosin you need it. If you can get your jackets very clean and use them right away, rosin is just fine and better in my opinion (no chance of corrosion later on if you fail to neutralize all the acid (that is what the baking soda is for, to neutralize the acid)). If you cannot get your jackets down to good clean bare copper with no oxidation than you will need to use acid core flux and use a neutralizing wash afterward. If you miss any they will corrode over time, you will see the lead turn white/silvery powder residue and the copper will be the blue/green and/or black.

    Skip the all natural or bio-flux and use the good old cheap stuff. Lots of ways about it, if you are only doing a small number you can nip off a small piece of flux core solider and drop it into the base of the jacket first although in the smaller calibers that may cause significant weight variation depending on the % difference between cuts, I use a small squeeze bottle with a needle tip and cut my flux with alcohol to make it liquid and just drop a drop into the base of the jacket, this makes it very fast for doing by the 100 count. Just add enough alcohol to have it as liquid as you want and go, you will be using more than you need so don't worry about it if you mix it 50/50 or 25/75 or 75/25.
    Ron Reed
    Oklahoma City, OK
    info@reedsammo.com

  7. #7
    I'm pretty sure just heat would bond when you don't want it to (e.g. a short-lived Portuguese flirtation with copper foil-patched bullets) but not bond when you do.

    The fluxes recommended for electronics, and for such jobs as soldering shotgun ribs where you mustn't have corrosion underneath, are rosin based. There are lots of jobs where there is no reason to use anything else, but they can leave a residue when confined and heated, either burnt or just a pocket of hardened rosin, and it could be off-centre. For this job I believe I would use an acid flux, which I make by dissolving zinc chloride and ammonium chloride in water. With that the residue is very slight and evenly distributed. A few minutes in water afterwards will remove any that remains where air can reach it.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

    Hickory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    The Great Black Swamp of North West Ohio
    Posts
    3,092
    Back in the 80's I bonded about 2000 bullets using rimfire jackets for shooting prairie dogs, it was time consuming and tedious.
    The results were more then great, the bullets held together just enough to get a lot of doubles and some triples. But, like I said, it's time consuming and tedious.
    A little tin will lower the melting point and give better adhesion without over annealing the jackets.
    Political correctness is a national suicide pact.

    I am a sovereign individual, accountable
    only to God and my own conscience.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master Faret's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    South Central Wisconsin
    Posts
    384


    This is what I use. Must de acid after bonding like others have said.
    Last edited by Faret; 03-01-2017 at 10:40 AM.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    plains of colorado
    Posts
    1,209
    Quote Originally Posted by Hickory View Post
    Back in the 80's I bonded about 2000 bullets using rimfire jackets for shooting prairie dogs, it was time consuming and tedious.
    The results were more then great, the bullets held together just enough to get a lot of doubles and some triples. But, like I said, it's time consuming and tedious.
    A little tin will lower the melting point and give better adhesion without over annealing the jackets.
    ​he's unemployed, he has all the time in the world.

  11. #11
    I have found the easiest method was to get a bottle of the liquid fluxes that are available, I use All-State Duzall Flux distributed by All-State Welding out of Taneytown, Maryland.

    I wash my cores in hot water and Dawn detergent and let them dry. Then the jackets are placed upright on a length of aluminum channel and a drop of All-State flux is put into each jacket. The clean cores are dropped into the jackets and each assembly is heated with a propane torch until the lead core melts.

    After they cores and jackets cool, I wash them in a mild solution of ammonia and water to neutralize the remaining flux. After they dry, swage as normal.

    Note that your jackets need no special cleaning, the All-State flux will give you a bond in jackets as they come from the bag.

    A word of caution, be certain that the cores are a loose fit all the way to the base of the jacket or else when you heat them the vaporizing flux will throw them right out of the jacket back at you.

    The bond is 100%.

    PB

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

    Hickory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    The Great Black Swamp of North West Ohio
    Posts
    3,092
    Quote Originally Posted by rancher1913 View Post
    ​he's unemployed, he has all the time in the world.
    ​Mortal man only has a very small portion of 'all the time in the world.'
    Political correctness is a national suicide pact.

    I am a sovereign individual, accountable
    only to God and my own conscience.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Oregon Coast
    Posts
    2,632
    When I'm swaging handgun bullets using brass casings for jackets, I end up with bonded cores without the use of any fluxes. I believe it's because I'm heating my jackets and cores to 1,125 degrees F, and letting them heat soak overnight in the ceramics kiln I use for annealing. I picked this temperature because that's what Starline uses to anneal their brass during the manufacturing process, and I figured they knew more about making brass into useful items than I do.

    The result in my .429" bullets is the only way to separate the core from the fired jackets is to melt it out. I've yet to have one separate when fired into the dirt berm at our range, and I've dug a lot of them out just to see. We also mine our berms, so the ones I miss are in the mix when all the bullets are sifted out.

    http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/Re...ling%20Jackets

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Hickory View Post
    ​Mortal man only has a very small portion of 'all the time in the world.'
    Yes, but he doesn't have to worry about the things he puts off until afterwards.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
    runfiverun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    27,103
    okay it looks like i'll need to figure out a flux then.
    I thought I had some paste flux out in the shed, looks like a trip to the hardware store is in order.
    I don't need them all bonded but I think for hunting it'll help, I'm gonna add a cannelure too.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Bozoland Mt.
    Posts
    1,268
    I'm using paste flux for soldering copper pipe applied with a Qtip.
    Standing all the jackets made from fired brass up right in a stainless steel pan and putting them on an electric burner.
    To lazy to chase arrows.
    Clodhopper

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    runfiverun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    soda springs Id.
    Posts
    27,103
    that's similar to my set-up.

    I'm using a little counter top single burner heating element.
    the holder I made from two circular saw blades with holes drilled in the top blade.
    the lid is a stainless steel bowl.
    it just barely gets over 700-f and only holds 60 bullets but it does what I want it to do.
    it goes through a heat & cool cycle in about 20 minutes, so the output is something like 120 bullets an hour.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  18. #18
    Moderator



    JonB_in_Glencoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Land of 10,000 Lakes
    Posts
    8,678
    So, I've never tried to 'bond' any bullets that I have swaged...but I have done a lot of soldering...years of soldering on the job. A Lead/Tin alloy will "wet" or bond to copper or brass a lot sooner than a Lead alloy without Tin...the more tin the more wetting. Flux aids in the wetting, by cleaning the copper/brass...If your jackets are super clean, that is maybe why you seemingly had bonded your jackets without flux. Maybe bust a few open with a cold chisel and hammer? that should show if the lead alloy is truely wetted to the jacket.

  19. #19
    Boolit Man Gamsek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    EU
    Posts
    113
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8505.jpg 
Views:	22 
Size:	64.5 KB 
ID:	189475
    The way I do it by Dave Corbin's instructions....they need polishing after...

  20. #20
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Oregon Coast
    Posts
    2,632
    Quote Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe View Post
    So, I've never tried to 'bond' any bullets that I have swaged...but I have done a lot of soldering...years of soldering on the job. A Lead/Tin alloy will "wet" or bond to copper or brass a lot sooner than a Lead alloy without Tin...the more tin the more wetting. Flux aids in the wetting, by cleaning the copper/brass...If your jackets are super clean, that is maybe why you seemingly had bonded your jackets without flux. Maybe bust a few open with a cold chisel and hammer? that should show if the lead alloy is truely wetted to the jacket.
    I've done that very thing with a cold chisel, Jon. They are as one. The only way to separate my cores from the jackets is to melt them out, even after being smashed by impacting the dirt berm. I believe it's due to the higher temperatures I anneal at versus the lower temperatures others are using. The over night heat sink to let them cool in the closed kiln probably also has something to do with it. Even after sitting all night in the kiln, they still read about 240 to 260 degrees F after sitting there over 10 hours, so I take the tray out and set in on the concrete floor for another hour to get them cool enough to handle.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check