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Thread: Forming Brass for a J. Rosler 11mm Sporting Rifle

  1. #1
    Boolit Man
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    Forming Brass for a J. Rosler 11mm (video added)

    I am extremely proud of this particular project. Although I have formed brass for quite a few antique firearms I have always had a starting place. I knew the caliber and was able to look up a likely parent case. This one I had to figure out and I still do not know what caliber it actually is.
    First the rifle. It was built by Johan Rosler in the 1880's. So far this is all I can find out about him. "Johann Rosler was listed as a gunsmith in Salzburg Austria from the 1870s until the 1890s and was a maker of Fine Rifles, Drillings, and shotguns. He was appointed Buchmiester or Royal Court Maker sometime in the 1880s where he was the sole maker of firearms for the Royal Austrian Court and held this title until the 1890s."



    It is a single shot hunting/stalking rifle chambered in some 11mm caliber. It was sold to me as chambered in .43 Mauser, but it is not. It is finely engraved and in almost mint condition. Even the screw heads are engraved and it has a Greek god face carved horn cap on the pistol grip.

    Double set triggers and a tang sight that completely folds into the tang and out of sight. Bore is pristine.

    As I said it was sold to me as a .43 Mauser and it is not so I had to figure out what it is. Here is my process. I tried to chamber a .43 Mauser round, but the body of the case was too thick to fit. I took a chamber cast and slugged the bore. The groove diameter is .446 which would be consistent with a .43 Mauser. However, the chamber cast showed a tapered case not a bottle neck. I measured everything and searched all of my literature and on line and could not find a match. I contacted some folks in Germany and Austria, but nothing. On a hunch I ran a .43 Mauser case up into a 45/70 sizing die. The case now chambered perfectly, however, if you are familiar with the .43 Mauser case there is a "bump out" on the back of the rim. I do not know what that is called. So although the newly sized case fit the chamber the rifle would not close because of the "bump out". I ground off the "bump" and voila, it chambered perfectly. Except now the primer could not be seated deeply enough with the material ground off. Aaaarggh! For the heck of it I tried to chamber a 45/70 case, but of course now it was the neck that was too large (.458 bullet as opposed to .446). I ran the 45/70 case into the .43 Mauser sizing die which gave the 45/70 a very slight bottle neck, but it chambered up to the rim which was too big and too thick. I chucked it in the lathe and cut the rim diameter from .600 to .586 and then slowly thinned the rim working slowly from the inside back until it would chamber. Once I had done this once it was now repeatable and I made 20 pieces. For a bullet I used a soft lead 300 gr. Gasser revolver bullet sized to .446 and lubed with SPG. I suspected that the case would hold better then 60 grs of 2F black powder, but I wanted a more reduced load. Old rifle and also it only weighs about 6 1/2 lbs. so I wanted to go light. I loaded 50 grs. of Goex 2F and then topped off with Cream of Wheat as a filler. Then a .030 wad, a grease cookie and another wad. Lastly I seated the bullet. Oh yeah, large magnum rifle primer. Below are 2 rounds. The bottleneck is a bit hard to see.



    My thinking was that once I fired it then it would size to the chamber and the bottleneck would be gone. The chamber cast showed a 2.35 case length as opposed to the 2.10 of the 45/70. I figured that if the round showed any promise I could try it with some 45/90 brass. Today the weather was nice and I finally hit the range. Interestingly enough there was only one guy at the range and he was a Chinese fellow who was quite interested in the whole thing. He actually interviewed and filmed me while he translated into Chinese. I gave a blow by blow description and then did the shooting. He says he is going to post it on Chinese Youtube. He will keep me informed.
    Below is the last 5 shot group that I fired. I am pretty pleased with the results. Shoots a bit to the left, but I can drift the sight in the future. I think that if I play with loads and bullet weights this old timer promises to be a good shooter.



    You can see 2 of the fired cases in this photo. The bottleneck is gone.



    Until I find out differently I have dubbed this round 11mm Rosler in honor of the maker. I am just thrilled with the outcome. This is a 130 year old rifle of unknown caliber which has been brought back to life.
    Last edited by The Goose; 05-20-2017 at 10:12 AM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Beautiful elegant old gun. appears to be easier to make 11mm Rosler than to make .43 Mauser from 45-90.If you wanted another bullet choice the RCBS .446 works very well in my 71/84, also Lee's 405 hollow base that I size to .446,but maybe recoil would be too much. The original cartridge possibly was P Patched. Looks like a deer killer with class!

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    The "bump" on the case head is called Mauser A-Boden or Mauser A-Bottom and was designed on the 43 Mauser 1871 rifle to aid the extractor over the rim.

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy map55b's Avatar
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    Goose,

    First very nice! I love stuff like this. Now that you have fire formed cases can you work up a way to reload these? I'm curious why you needed the step originally now that it is gone after fire forming? Am I missing something or was this simply pat of the discovery? -map

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy map55b's Avatar
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    Is the an example of Mauser A-Boden?


  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    From Your information. The cartridge Could be a Collath sporting . They made Large bore single and and Double gun Cartridge. The other possibility is a early Werndl 11.4x50 R M73 . This was a Straight Rimmed Case. Boolit Dia.446 But not as Long as you described. They are several books to Look in. Fred Dadig Books, Cartridge for collector. and European Sporting Cartridges . Cartridges of the world will be No help
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  7. #7
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by map55b View Post
    Goose,

    First very nice! I love stuff like this. Now that you have fire formed cases can you work up a way to reload these? I'm curious why you needed the step originally now that it is gone after fire forming? Am I missing something or was this simply pat of the discovery? -map
    Now that the brass is formed I will not be resizing it again. Just load up the case, seat the bullet and get enough neck tension to hold the bullet in place. Not hard in a single shot. I needed to get the neck of the case reduced to take a .446 diameter bullet and the only method I had available was the .43 Mauser sizing die. So it was part of the process.

  8. #8
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gewehr-Guy View Post
    Beautiful elegant old gun. appears to be easier to make 11mm Rosler than to make .43 Mauser from 45-90.If you wanted another bullet choice the RCBS .446 works very well in my 71/84, also Lee's 405 hollow base that I size to .446,but maybe recoil would be too much. The original cartridge possibly was P Patched. Looks like a deer killer with class!
    I just got a similar mold from Tom at Accurate Molds. I will be trying it out.

  9. #9
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by salpal48 View Post
    From Your information. The cartridge Could be a Collath sporting . They made Large bore single and and Double gun Cartridge. The other possibility is a early Werndl 11.4x50 R M73 . This was a Straight Rimmed Case. Boolit Dia.446 But not as Long as you described. They are several books to Look in. Fred Dadig Books, Cartridge for collector. and European Sporting Cartridges . Cartridges of the world will be No help
    I checked out the Collath. The bullet diameter is .442 which is close, but the rim diameter is .515 and mine is .586. The Werndl is too short. Lots of rounds come close. It may be just some obscure chambering (there were dozens in that neck of the woods) or it may have been proprietary. He was making rifles for wealthy nobility, so who knows?

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Goose, well done sir!!! Doing what you did is one of my favorite activities/challenges. I have 3 or 4 rifles/drilling/Schuetzen that came in the same manner. Advertised as one thing and turned out something completely different. Anyone can go to Wally World and buy ammo. Doing what you did is the epitome of hand loading and, as you know, the satisfaction is incomparable. Again, well done!!!!!
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  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Beautiful rifle and great work bringing her voice back to life.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Goose, if you still have your chamber casting why not ship it off to Huntington's and let them take a peek at it. (A call to them first would probably be appreciated.) They have quite an extensive data inventory and may be able to name that cartridge for you. You should include the details of your brass forming activities with measurements to support their search. Good luck with your project.

  13. #13
    Boolit Man
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    Video of my rifle and I taken for Chinese Youtube. Check it out.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzRb...&feature=share

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by map55b View Post
    Is the an example of Mauser A-Boden?

    Yup

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Very nice Sir.Hmmmmmmmmmmm,we now have an internationally famous person on the board.
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
    Leo
    People never lie so much as after a hunt,during a war,or before an election.
    Otto von Bismarck

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Either Huntington's or Dave at CH4D. Both have extensive knowledge and collections of old chambers. Dave told me my chamber cast of a 10.5x47R (Mauser A case cut back) was the 23rd example of that chamber he had! (Fred Huntington had 9x47R Mauser A brass - I necked it up) Those guys all made their own reamers, and while the brass was available, they made something that could be made to fit. At least that's my guess.
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  17. #17
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    Very nice rifle!
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check