45-70 Trapdoor Cartridge

[Musket Man]

Hello to everyone. I finally got my hands on my very own 1873 Springfield Trapdoor. I knew I would eventually want to shoot some black powder cartridges in it. I purchased the gun from some good friends that own and operate a local gun store. They had limited experience on loading black powder but told me to do my research and make sure I had no air space in my cartridges.

I was familiar with Goex, that's what I shoot in my muzzleloaders, so that was my powder of choice. I researched drop tubes and built one out of 3/8" brass tubing, mine is only 18" but serves the purpose for now.

I am loading 55 grains Goex 2f in Remington brass,CCI large rifle primers with Montana Precision Swagging 405 grain bullets. For my wad to take up any space between my bullet and powder is a 44/45 cal wad like I use in my Colt reproduction revolver. Has anyone else used these before in their cartridges? They fill the void perfectly and the bullet seems to seat perfectly.

I've reloaded and fired about 12 of these without any issue. I am getting 1120 fps through my chronograph with this setup.

I am wanting to hear from you guys that have a lot of experience with these rifles. It's a wonderful shooter but I want to preserve it for even more years to come while enjoying shooting it.

Thanks

[country gent]

Your on the way. Goex seems to like some compression to burn and perform at its best. A brass, aluminum, or hard wood fake bullet made to the same shape and form as what your loading. only make it .008-.010 under sized on the dia so it can easily be inserted and removed. This can be used with the seating die to compress the powder charge. This works well if your not crimping the cartridges. If you crimp then make the dummy bullet .125 long and use a spacer from 38 357 die set to raise crimping groove out of the way. On wads a heavy wad cut to fit snugly into the case, Napa rubber fiber material .060 thk., ldpe, felt, cork, card board have all been used. I also like to use a couple tracing paper wads between the heavy wad and bullet. With a slow pour of the powder your tube should work fine. I use a 3 ft tube but 18" should work with the compression die set up. Do you know what lube your bullets are lubed with? some lubes are better for black powder keeping the fouling soft. SPG is very good here. You might want to give Olde Ensford black powder in 1 1/2F and 2F, Swiss in the same a try also.

[Musket Man]

Your on the way. Goex seems to like some compression to burn and perform at its best. A brass, aluminum, or hard wood fake bullet made to the same shape and form as what your loading. only make it .008-.010 under sized on the dia so it can easily be inserted and removed. This can be used with the seating die to compress the powder charge. This works well if your not crimping the cartridges. If you crimp then make the dummy bullet .125 long and use a spacer from 38 357 die set to raise crimping groove out of the way. On wads a heavy wad cut to fit snugly into the case, Napa rubber fiber material .060 thk., ldpe, felt, cork, card board have all been used. I also like to use a couple tracing paper wads between the heavy wad and bullet. With a slow pour of the powder your tube should work fine. I use a 3 ft tube but 18" should work with the compression die set up. Do you know what lube your bullets are lubed with? some lubes are better for black powder keeping the fouling soft. SPG is very good here. You might want to give Olde Ensford black powder in 1 1/2F and 2F, Swiss in the same a try also.

The bullets are lubed with SPG lube with a Brinnell hardness of 9.25 made from a 20:1 alloy. This is the information that I got prior to ordering them through Midway USA. The reloader I'm using is a Lee Classic hand loader specifically for the 45-70 Government. The ones so far I've fired was not crimped. From what I understand I should be ok with not crimping since it's a single shot?

I have looked at some different molds and want to eventually pour my own bullets. The .458 diameter seemed to be working very well so far. I shot fairly tight groups @ 80 yds for a gun of this age.

[Lead pot]

A couple things I would check out. The Mt. precision swage, Check the diameter of them. I don't know how hard they swage them but if they are very hard and the bullet is undersized compared to the bore/groove of that TD they might not seal well and accuracy will suffer. Some TD'd run a large bore/groove to .462" I have seen. If those bullets your using are .457-8" and hard you will get a lead smear in a hurry.
Your wads for the colt are designed for a .454" maybe and these if that small you will get gas cuts from not sealing the bore/groove. When you fire the rounds you have loaded clean a case with water and just twist a paper towel in it to dry it out. Put a wad in the case mouth and check how loose it fits. If it just falls in you need a wider wad. You can also check the bullet how tight it fits in the fired case. If it is a very loose fit I would cast or slug the bore ahead of the throat. If your fortunate you will have a .458 groove like two of mine are and makes the bullet choice less of a problem getting a mould or over the counter bullet if you don't cast. If it runs .461-2" I would have a custom mould made with the proper diameter.

[varsity07840]

A couple things I would check out. The Mt. precision swage, Check the diameter of them. I don't know how hard they swage them but if they are very hard and the bullet is undersized compared to the bore/groove of that TD they might not seal well and accuracy will suffer. Some TD'd run a large bore/groove to .462" I have seen. If those bullets your using are .457-8" and hard you will get a lead smear in a hurry.
Your wads for the colt are designed for a .454" maybe and these if that small you will get gas cuts from not sealing the bore/groove. When you fire the rounds you have loaded clean a case with water and just twist a paper towel in it to dry it out. Put a wad in the case mouth and check how loose it fits. If it just falls in you need a wider wad. You can also check the bullet how tight it fits in the fired case. If it is a very loose fit I would cast or slug the bore ahead of the throat. If your fortunate you will have a .458 groove like two of mine are and makes the bullet choice less of a problem getting a mould or over the counter bullet if you don't cast. If it runs .461-2" I would have a custom mould made with the proper diameter.

My Lee .459 hollow base mould casts at .461 in 20/1 alloy.

[Lead pot]

Yes they would blow out the skirt to fill the grooves, but you would never get the accuracy potential out of the rifle using those bullets in a cartridge rifle.

[Nobade]

That Lee bullet has such thick skirts it won't blow out. The hollow base is just there for balance. It is the bullet Pat Wolfe talks about in his Trapdoor book, pretty much a copy of the original government design. Those are great bullets for the Trapdoor (amazingly enough) and if the OP doesn't have Wolfe's book he needs to get a copy. It has pretty much everything you need to know about how to make those rifles run properly.

That said, my own rifle has some pitting in the bore and accuracy is less than stellar (though well within specs) with grease groove bullets. I started loading it with paper patched ones and got much better performance. Something to keep in mind....

Another thought, drop the wads and use the full 70gr. charge. It will then properly track to the sights at range.

-Nobade

[Don McDowell]

[QUOTE]
I am loading 55 grains Goex 2f in Remington brass,CCI large rifle primers with Montana Precision Swagging 405 grain bullets. For my wad to take up any space between my bullet and powder is a 44/45 cal wad like I use in my Colt reproduction revolver. Has anyone else used these before in their cartridges? They fill the void perfectly and the bullet seems to seat perfectly.
/QUOTE]

I use the Muzzleloader original dry lubed felt wads in a number of cartridges. The 44-45 caliber wads work fine in the 45-70.
I would suggest a bit more powder, you should easily be able to get 65 gr. of 2f and the felt wad in the case.

[Musket Man]

I wasn't for sure what type pressure I would be creating with any more powder. So I basically started low and was going from there. As far as accuracy is concerned, I can only shoot just a tad over 100 yds at my home range, it shoots better than I am capable of at that distance. 55 grains seemed to be a good balance, but I want to try some different loads later on.

I do have a question that has to do with different "fillers" to take up air space in the cartridge. I have heard of some people using corn meal or cream of wheat to eliminate the air space. How does this effect accuracy and overall performance of the rifle compared to a wad like I am shooting? And is there a certain formula (trick) to calculate pressure you are creating with different grains of powders?

I know I have read that people just fill the case with black powder? I just wanted to be safe and not put any unnecessary stress on my rifle.

[bob208]

you are loading the old carbine load. 405 gr bullet with 55gr. powder. the rifle load was a little hard on the shooter. use a 24" drop tube. also a hard card wad between the grease cookie and powder.

[Lead pot]

Nobade I said blow the skirt out to fill the grooves not from blowing out at the muzzle end from a heavy load. 55 gr 2 F load is a light load for a .45-70

[black vic]

This question is a bit off topic although it is about the Trap Door. I live in Toronto. Does anyone know where I could buy a set of front blades for a TD?

[Lead pot]

http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/TrapdoorSights.html

[varsity07840]

I wasn't for sure what type pressure I would be creating with any more powder. So I basically started low and was going from there. As far as accuracy is concerned, I can only shoot just a tad over 100 yds at my home range, it shoots better than I am capable of at that distance. 55 grains seemed to be a good balance, but I want to try some different loads later on.

I do have a question that has to do with different "fillers" to take up air space in the cartridge. I have heard of some people using corn meal or cream of wheat to eliminate the air space. How does this effect accuracy and overall performance of the rifle compared to a wad like I am shooting? And is there a certain formula (trick) to calculate pressure you are creating with different grains of powders?

I know I have read that people just fill the case with black powder? I just wanted to be safe and not put any unnecessary stress on my rifle.

You fill the the case with powder, less the seating depth of the bullet and wad. In modern cases,
70 gr will need some compression in order to seat the bullet and wad to the proper depth. There will be no pressure issues with that charge.

[trails4u]

45-70 is very telling in its name..... I've never tried a 55g load. With drop tube, 2F and an .030 wad, I've always loaded at or near 70g. Now I have to admit, I'm all the sudden interested in the idea of trying to load it down!?!?!

[bob208]

I use old brass keys to make front sight blades. made more then one for and old Winchester that lost its blade.

[Big Mak]

black vic, my gunsmith makes custom titanium front sights for the trap door. (EDM machine)

I found that .350 works best for 100 yard shooting. Just add 100 yards on the buffington peep sight (shooting 100 yds, then put the rear sight at 200 yards. If shooting a target at 500 yards, put the Buffington peep at 600 yards. Pretty easy math)

You can contact paul at notchironworks@gmail.com.
Here is what you get for $35.00

[Big Mak]

My process for black powder reloading is not unlike those mentioned in this thread.

Drop tube.
Then I prefer to use a .060 wad and a Montana compression die, compressed to .150 or so. This allows the bullet to compress another .050 to ensure no space is left.
I load what I have available in my area (Old Eynsford, 1 1/2F) at 65 gr for a 425 gr Lyman bullet (With 20 to 1, the lyman 457193 I have throws the bullets at about 425 gr)

[M-Tecs]

black vic, my gunsmith makes custom titanium front sights for the trap door. (EDM machine)

I found that .350 works best for 100 yard shooting. Just add 100 yards on the buffington peep sight (shooting 100 yds, then put the rear sight at 200 yards. If shooting a target at 500 yards, put the Buffington peep at 600 yards. Pretty easy math)

You can contact paul at notchironworks@gmail.com.
Here is what you get for $35.00

Thanks. The site for the sight will come in handy.

[Big Mak]

You're more than welcome. Paul is a great guy and an original Minnesoton like myself. He moved to WA like I and loves firearms and climbing mountains. He and my youngest son (18) are hoping to climo Mt.Rainier next year. (Too bus this year)