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Thread: Digital scale drift

  1. #61
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by racepres View Post
    ,
    And...Who... can prove that exact weight is resulting in more accurate loads than exact Volume???

    Constant Fight and Disagreement on that...
    Since I shot my very best group ever with a Volume charge...I use Volume..YMMV
    makes me laugh as I have a Friend who cuts Sticks of powder to get his "perfect" charge...he has yet to shoot consistently better groups than a another guy using a Dillon...with thrown charge...

    Life is wayyyy too short to fool with .01 of a grain of Powder...
    And any Lee equipment I have seen in use...seemed at least adequate...less expensive, but at least as good as the casual operator..

    I don't bash anyones equipment after being outshot by a Young man using a Lee Loader [smack it with a hammer one] and a Dipper...right at the bench!!!!
    Exactly!

    I use volume charges only. The scales are there for calibration of the volume only. I really like the Lee Auto Disk measures as I note what CC's are used for the loads I do and this is absolutely repeatable without having to tweak the volumes.
    Liberalism is the triumph of emotion over intellect, but masquerading as the reverse.

    I don't know how we ever shot maximum loads before P/C come along and saved us all. R5R

    "No mosque in the United States flies an American flag."

  2. #62
    Boolit Master jmorris's Avatar
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    And...Who... can prove that exact weight is resulting in more accurate loads than exact Volume???
    I suppose you can prove or disprove that to yourself, if you have a way to repeatedly measure charges to the single kernel then you have the ability to test them side by side with other methods.

    Pretty much why I threw this together.



    If you don't have the ability to see if it makes any difference your just guessing or hoping.


    There are more than a few successful competition shooters that use devices to throw accurate charges that cost more than $1000, like this one.

    http://www.6mmbr.com/prometheus.html

    Now, one can't automatically attribute a win with any single component or that would be like saying the car that won the Daytona 500, won because of the right rear tire alone. However if that tire failed, it's safe to say it wouldn't have won.

  3. #63
    Boolit Master
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    I refuse to Obsess!!!
    At this stage of advanced development...almost any piece in the rack can outshoot me anyway...
    Luckily, I have young friends who can really shoot..and they don't seem to care how the ammo was Mfg...just that it shoot as well as they can...If Not...something gets changed..
    Now, none of them orient the brass, nor shoot only one piece of Brass...
    Not what they are trying to accomplish...if they can approach 3/8 or better at 100yds...they are just fine with it..
    If I can stay at 1" I'm tickled!!!

  4. #64
    Boolit Master jmorris's Avatar
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    At this stage of advanced development...almost any piece in the rack can outshoot me anyway...
    Thats why I said you could prove or disprove it, there are lots of folks and guns that a half grain difference in charge won't make any difference in group size as long as it doesn't cause the gun to blow up, for them it would do nothing.

  5. #65
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmorris View Post
    It would be impressive if you could throw to the hundredth of a grain consistently with any measure, much less a dipper.
    10 scoops = 27.7 grains 10 more the same, 10 more the same, close enough.

  6. #66
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by ulav8r View Post
    10 scoops = 27.7 grains 10 more the same, 10 more the same, close enough.
    Im not disagreeing or agreeing with your statement as I only used a dipper 45 years ago with a Lee loader for 45/70. But I would have to agree with the slick setup Mr Morris has in his video to be hands down far more accurate than a dipper.

  7. #67
    Boolit Master


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    A dipper and accuracy? That's a new one.

    I don't know when jmorris actually came up with his idea on the electronic trickler but for me I mentioned the idea here on this forum in 2013 and was met with skepticism and ridicule. My original sensor I was using cost $40+ . Meanwhile thinking my idea had no merit I set it on the shelf until jmorris posted his electronic scale in a thread. His accurate inexpensive sensor motivated me to once again play with my idea resulting in the same basic thing jmorris came up with.

    Now the thread being scale digital scale drift probably brought about jmorris post on his electronic trickler and the extreme accuracy of the trickler to the point of being better than the store bought units by RCBS and others.

    Having checked my unit I also can attest to the ability to throw one kernel accuracy and accuracy in the three place decimal. Having grown up watching my father load for his 30-06 and watching the result of loads being .1 of a grain different I can attest to the increase in accuracy aka smaller tighter groups. I was taught to trickle rifle loads to obtain the BEST consistent load and that = accuracy.

    Ever open up a box of cereal and wonder if the weight was accurate and being told it was weight and not volume. Did the dipper test for grins. The results were in favor of the trickled loads.

    I can't speak for anyone but myself when I say this. Some rifle loads I use are borderline between max maximum and blowing the gun up probably where .1 of a grain will be the difference between extreme pressure and splitting the case. Is it excessive to want to throw a load very close and electronically trickle the load for accuracy of 99.99%? No, not when you can make a piece of equipment for less than $100. I guess you can always buy the piece of equipment for 3.5X more money and have something not as good not as accurate.

    Maybe trickling isn't for you but it has already proven itself more accurate than the digital scales until you hit the 1K mark. Want to be more accurate? Then you need the very best scale either electronic or analog and at this point your at 1k or better.

  8. #68
    Boolit Master


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    Having made comments above I will mention another thing.. Being able to make up an accurate load one can then turn to the gun, gun bedding, trigger group, and such and start eliminating the problems that are keeping your gun from being more accurate. Once the load is established the gun is proven the only thing left is the shooter.

  9. #69
    Boolit Master jmorris's Avatar
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    10 scoops = 27.7 grains 10 more the same, 10 more the same, close enough.
    That would be a tenth of a grain and an average at that.

    If you had a repeatable method of throwing charges, firing and chronographing, you would find out that a tenth of a grain difference in charge weight, depending on powder used, could lead to a 5-10 fps change in velocity in a 308 round for example. A 10 fps difference in velocity would result in a 3 inch difference in drop at 1000 yards. So even if everything else was perfect, the first two shots would be further apart than the 10 shot record. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...ory-be-amazed/

    You, your gun, the deer you shot 60 yards away from your blind might not ever see the difference but that doesn't mean there is no difference.

  10. #70
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmorris View Post
    That would be a tenth of a grain and an average at that.

    If you had a repeatable method of throwing charges, firing and chronographing, you would find out that a tenth of a grain difference in charge weight, depending on powder used, could lead to a 5-10 fps change in velocity in a 308 round for example. A 10 fps difference in velocity would result in a 3 inch difference in drop at 1000 yards. So even if everything else was perfect, the first two shots would be further apart than the 10 shot record. http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...ory-be-amazed/

    You, your gun, the deer you shot 60 yards away from your blind might not ever see the difference but that doesn't mean there is no difference.
    Ain't shootin no deer at 60 yards with a .380. For precision rifle loads I'll use one of my scales.

  11. #71
    Boolit Master jmorris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ulav8r View Post
    Ain't shootin no deer at 60 yards with a .380.
    Yes, it would be pretty silly to weigh each charge for a firearm you would be really happy with shooting a 2" group at 25 yards with.

  12. #72
    Silly is one of the nicest things I've ever been called ��
    NRA Life Member

  13. #73
    Boolit Master


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    I'll have to throw my two cents in. A lot has to do with the powder being used. Something like H335,310, 231 and such will throw within .1 of a grain. Others the stick type will generally not throw that close. When using max loads to me its a no brainer to trickle the charge so that my max charges aren't over. My time is cheaper than blowing up my rifle but then again its just me. My time to throw and trickle the charges is minimal when I'm only loading say 50 rounds.

    Those that believe they can reliably throw max charges by volume with their Lee disk type powder measure may very well some day have their opinions changed. I personally hope this never does happen. It just goes to say you can take a horse to water but you can't make them drink and I guess you can show someone a better more accurate way of doing things and well I guess they just can't see the light.

    I personally will continue to trickle ALL my rifle stuff simply because I was taught to do it this way. The only exceptions to my trickle rifle stuff is my 5.56 and 300 black out rounds. I still continue to reload them on my Lyman T-Mag and not on the Dillon 650. To each his own... I will opt for peace of mind when reloading.

  14. #74
    Boolit Master jmorris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pull the trigger View Post
    Silly is one of the nicest things I've ever been called ��
    I didn't intend to call anyone any names, rather the action of trickling is quite unnecessary for just about any pistol round. It's really not necessary for rifle rounds either for most uses. Not like ammunition manufacturers have thousands of employees sitting there trickling every charge. If you can't get your handloads more accurate that premium factory loads that are thrown volume charges, are you getting a return on the time investment?

  15. #75
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by jmorris View Post
    I didn't intend to call anyone any names, rather the action of trickling is quite unnecessary for just about any pistol round. It's really not necessary for rifle rounds either for most uses. Not like ammunition manufacturers have thousands of employees sitting there trickling every charge. If you can't get your handloads more accurate that premium factory loads that are thrown volume charges, are you getting a return on the time investment?
    The commercial reloading machines are more accurate than what we have aren't they? Capable by design to throw a better charge?

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6bg6ga View Post
    The commercial reloading machines are more accurate than what we have aren't they? Capable by design to throw a better charge?
    Probably not, but I have data to back that up. When you consider how fast they run the automatic machines, it is a wonder they can get powder in the cases, much less hold a tight tolerance on the amount.

  17. #77
    Boolit Master jmorris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6bg6ga View Post
    The commercial reloading machines are more accurate than what we have aren't they? Capable by design to throw a better charge?
    Not really, they are not adjustable though, at least not in the sense we are used to. They are more like shot gun presses in that they use bushings of different diameters/volumes so there is no such thing as loosing adjustment.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check