4f black powder

[rodwha]

Note, though, that 4F is used in pistols, which means smaller charges. It's too difficult to know when the pressure spike becomes too great beyond that.

[jjarrell]

2nd edition of the Black Powder Handbook does not have 4f load data. Not under rifle, revolver, or BPC for rifle or pistol. It may have been in a earlier edition and removed in the later edition. If I'm missing it I apologize but I went back and looked.

[Chill Wills]

Well for starters 4f is a flint lock priming powder, ...

Look at this way Ruger made a black powder pistol that could handle 40 grains of 3f powder as a maximum charge and anyone that knows anything about Bill Ruger knows he over built most of what he sold. So if his over built pistol was only safe with 3f powder just what does that tell you about everything else that uses black powder.

I don't believe the quote in red is correct. The 1970's era owners manual uses the wording "any grade" of powder. This implies his ROA is safe with 4F in any amount.

The advice in post #3 above is great. Start with a very small charge and work up. No need to get carried away.

[shdwlkr]

Well from the old Army owners manual
pg 10
Any granulation within these gradations could be used in the “Old Army”; normally, however, “FFFg” is the preferred
grain size. Replica black powder such as Pyrodex may be used, so long as
suggested loading data is strictly adhered to

pg 11
It is safe to use as much Black Powder as the chamber will hold, leaving room for
the bullet. This maximum loading is not usually the most accurate loading,

Years ago I called Ruger and the person I got on the phone said that really 4f was a proof load and not recommended as a usual powder charge. You do what you want with your muzzle loaders, me I like the idea of being around after a shooting session.

[dondiego]

dondiego
.31 colt used 3f 10-14 grains
.32 special would be 1f-2f
here is a table of some various calibers and bp loads
http://www.goexpowder.com/images/Loa...idge-Rifle.pdf

Interesting chart. They don't even use 4F for .22 LR.

[shdwlkr]

glad you liked it, if those who make black powder and for over a hundred plus years even don't recommend 4f, what makes you think it has any use other than as a primer in flint locks and even there you can use 3f and maybe even 2f. Some folks just don't get it, there is a reason why you just don't do what you think might be cool. But then Darwin is always looking for volunteers to win his award

[rodwha]

Well from the old Army owners manual
pg 10
Any granulation within these gradations could be used in the “Old Army”; normally, however, “FFFg” is the preferred
grain size. Replica black powder such as Pyrodex may be used, so long as
suggested loading data is strictly adhered to

pg 11
It is safe to use as much Black Powder as the chamber will hold, leaving room for
the bullet. This maximum loading is not usually the most accurate loading,

Years ago I called Ruger and the person I got on the phone said that really 4f was a proof load and not recommended as a usual powder charge. You do what you want with your muzzle loaders, me I like the idea of being around after a shooting session.

You cant just pick and chose what you want concerning this so as to say what you want it to. Here's the online manual (pg 9):

http://stevespages.com/pdf/ruger_oldarmy.pdf

It clearly states any granulation from 1F to 4F may be loaded.

[rodwha]

glad you liked it, if those who make black powder and for over a hundred plus years even don't recommend 4f, what makes you think it has any use other than as a primer in flint locks and even there you can use 3f and maybe even 2f. Some folks just don't get it, there is a reason why you just don't do what you think might be cool. But then Darwin is always looking for volunteers to win his award

Mae have a museum curator here who took apart metallic cartridges to be placed on display. Even the large calibers contained 4F and finer powders. Swiss powder s low 4F for pistols and 3F for rifles. You really ought to check your facts before you go on like this across various forums.

And hes yes it was the 1st addition in which 37 grns of 4F was loaded behind a ball in an 1860 Army.

[Chill Wills]

I think the ROA comparison is a rabbit hole to run down in this ML conversation. They are apples and oranges.

To the point of the FFFF in a ML. The question is an easy one and has a good answer above. Like everything in life, moderation is key.

I routinely remove the FFFF and fines from my powder for BP Cartridge Rifle use and rather than throw it away, I get great joy using it up shooting the ROA and the 50 flinter using safe loads. What is considered correct for someone else is their business.

[Edward]

Check the current March NRA back page (I have this old gun). They show a British Baker Rifle ( vintage 1806 )valued at $10000.00 big ones,seems the STANDARD load was around [wait for it] 100 grains more or less fine rifle powder between modern FFFg and FFFFg . I doubt
the barrel material was even close to modern off shore specs and the gun looks pretty good for an (off shore build)

[johnson1942]

now that is interesting edward. i think 4f is just a forgotten powder in the world and may have not been used much in america but it may have and just been forgotten. all i know is this, when i heard my friends foster grown child used it in his flintlock and won matches with it i tried it in a good american made 50 cal slowtwist gun and for that day of shooting i really liked it. it didnt hurt the nipple at all. ive heard that a good muzzle loader cracks when shot, never ever had one do that except the day i used 4f. it truly cracked very sharply every time i shot it that day. if i knew it was truly safe i would make a run to scottbluff and buy another can of it to try again. im not pushing the limit at all, i want facts before i jump into this and maybe ive tweeked enough interest of people who know how to do better research than i do. hope we get some more input.

[waksupi]

I do recall a friend used to shoot it in his .32. I don't know the charge. It sounded like a varmint rifle going off.

[rodwha]

Might want to search for Sam Fadala's original muzzleloader Handbook. I believe it showed pressures for several guns/loads. Since it showed 4F loads (I only know of the one posted showing an 1860 Army) it may well have info that might benefit you.

[Geezer in NH]

Lyman first showed pressures of 4f

[rodwha]

Lyman first showed pressures of 4f

Do you have these figures?

[johnson1942]

this is getting more interesting as it goes along. waksupi, you are right. it really cracks in a rifle report. i do remember quite a number of years ago that a famous author of the ssa colt books ruined one by using 4f in the 45 long colt case. i only heard that and do not know if it is true or not. it may have been just a story or maybe not.

[rodwha]

Might not have been just a story. It's said to use 2F in cartridges. I'm guessing it's the crimp that increases pressures? Get rid of the case and the requirement for 2F dissolves.

[Teddy (punchie)]

Just a little recap to start. I thought it was a burn rate not pressure with the BP size. Smaller the bore the smaller the powder. 1f cannons, 2f like most heavier guns like 45 cal and larger, not that 3fff can't be used. 3fff for a general usage and smaller arms and pistols. 4ffff primmer powder.

That said I had a ball on top of ball with powder between one time. So ball no powder to get it out. then one of the helpers ??? charged the bore with powder then added a ball , what a mess. Ended up with a mix of powder and ball and puller would not hold or grab the ball it was spinning in the flintlock. So I started to call around, ended up talking to Mr. C .
He is now Teddy think about be in the thick of a fight an using the black powder, how would you get it out, you would shoot it out. He said that just about any amount of regular black powder can be used, not any other but regular BP. Take out the priming plug (touch hole) and pack it with powder, replace plug (touch hole) and fire. Do it again and again until the ball is out. Took three times and ball was out, sounded like a funny firework but did work. I was told to use priming powder. Mr C had to explain this to me about 3 times as I was a smokeless powder person where he is a PB person they are not the same animal. PB is not a pressure on pressure forming like Smokeless can be. From the way I understand it BP pushes compared to Smokeless explosive pressure. Maybe an other way is black powder burns and smokeless explodes. BP make pressure in burning where smokeless just blows up.

He is still with us and I'll try and stop to chat with him. He collects old BP guns and arms. Be a sad sad day when he passes just tops, smart and he knows it and doesn't show it, good a Christian as any of us. SO young Ted as he calls me will stop and pick his brain.

I'm not a BP pistol person and I'll ask him about the pistols too. I know pistols can and will BLOW UP SO BE CAREFUL. Long guns I'm thinking there very hard to blow with BP, maybe the newer ones are just about no way to blow them. Anyone ever seen or heard tell of a BP rifle blowing up ?? using BP not something else or in replacement of.

[Geezer in NH]

Do you have these figures?

Goex 4f 44 cal Roundball starts 19 grains pressure 5,240 LUP loads go up to 37 grains pressure 7,420 LUP

Goex 3f 44 cal Roundball starts 19 grains pressure 5,540 LUP loads go up to 37 grains pressure 7,940 LUP

And NO I did not confuse the #'s as the book shows the 3f with the higher pressure. For what its worth.

Pressures taken in a special pressure revolver it states also.

[Chill Wills]

Here is a quick look at the Lyman ML guild with pressure for C&B
No data for ML was listed. I could guess that long barrels and short pressure times is the reason they are not listed. I could also guess that equal loads in long guns could be used. But, in a fact driven post guesses don't count .

Anyway, 4F with the pressures are listed for all C&B revolvers from 31 cal to the well made Ruger ROA.