Doing the Forbidden for Informations' Sake,

[edp2k]

> RESULTS ARE IN!
> 100% lead.

Something smell fishy here.

100% lead?

Not even a fractional percent of *ANYTHING* else?

No SN, SB, CA, AG, impurities, nothing?

And this was tested with a recently calibrated, high quality XRF machine, checked against other known, documented samples?

So the manufacturer of this common car battery used expensive 100.000% pure lab grade lead in this battery,
with no alloying agents to help the battery survive in the rough, bumpy, pot hole environment that a car battery must live in?

Hmmm.

Well, 5 out of 6 players say that Russian roulette is perfectly safe.

[M-Tecs]

Per various battery manufactures you should see lead, calcium, tin, aluminum, selenium and antimony depending on the alloy and application.

http://battcon.com/PapersFinal2009/C...09FINAL_12.pdf

Plate Alloys

There are five basic plate alloys used today.
1. Pure Lead used in standby long duration batteries with low current demands
2. Lead-Antimony used for cycling applications and often for heavy equipment starting batteries
3. Lead-Calcium (dominates the U.S. market) for flooded standby and VRLA designs
4. Lead-Selenium (dominates the European market) for flooded standby and cycling applications
5. Lead-Tin for VRL

[triggerhappy243]

I have been following this post from the start........................... mainly because "I" want to hear the truth, so "I" can share it with those that are like...... I wonder if............... Now we know the rest of this story.... as Paul Harvey would say. I commend redriver for doing this, because now if someone asks me, I can tell him why he should forget about the idea. 3-4 pounds of lead for all that work? I would rather slam my hand in a car door than waste the time fooling with car batteries.

[GhostHawk]

Would appear the biggest hazard is the acid.

Still not a lot of lead in them, and a fair amount of work to get it out. Hardly worth it IMO.

[RedRiver]

No. Nowhere near worth it. But now we have a big question that has been answered.

[KenH]

No. Nowhere near worth it. But now we have a big question that has been answered.

Actually, we have the question answered for YOUR one example of a battery - NOT for all batteries in general. While I don't doubt your post of results a bit, I'm 100% sure those are the results you got from the lab, it's just hard to believe lead from a battery is that pure. Not even a trace of other elements....

Just for the record, I've melted down a goodly number of car batteries in years gone by, back when I was "young, dumb, 'n full of c..." Yes, I survived, and we both survived casting bullets on stove with no vent while cooking on the other stove eye. Doesn't mean I'd want to do it now, and I played with mercury many years ago.

Ken H>

[eremington]

if he still has any dross from this experiment it would be interesting to see what it contains

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

[BNE]

> RESULTS ARE IN!
> 100% lead.

Something smell fishy here.

100% lead?

Not even a fractional percent of *ANYTHING* else?

No SN, SB, CA, AG, impurities, nothing?

And this was tested with a recently calibrated, high quality XRF machine, checked against other known, documented samples?

So the manufacturer of this common car battery used expensive 100.000% pure lab grade lead in this battery,
with no alloying agents to help the battery survive in the rough, bumpy, pot hole environment that a car battery must live in?

Hmmm.

Well, 5 out of 6 players say that Russian roulette is perfectly safe.

Calibration: Yes, by the manufacturer. Verified by one of our customers whose parts are used in mission critical military equipment.

Three Decimal places pure? Doubtful. The manufacturer claims 0.01% accuracy. I think 0.1 is more likely. (Just my opinion after running hundreds of these tests.)

The spectrum looked like any other pure lead sample. Yes, there was other "junk" present, but none large enough for the machine to report. Hence all less than 0.01%. When I specifically told the machine to look for the above mentioned elements, they all came up negative. Not just not there, negative values. Meaning Zero% measureable.

If you go back to the first post and then only look at RedRivers comments, he knew the dangers, stated he was taking precautions, and when he was done reported the results and stated it was not worth the time and effort.

I am disappointed in all the people who jumped on him for doing something they would not do. I'm of the opinion that this hobby CAN BE very dangerous, unless proper precautions are taken. For myself, I do the following religiously:
- cast under hood with a very strong ventilation system.
- use latex gloves ANY time I am in contact with lead, even if I am using coated bullets. (I even wear them under leather gloves when casting.)
- wear safety glasses.
- Only smelt outside
- thoroughly wash up before coming back into the house.
- Wear ear plugs and safety glasses when shooting.
I do all this so I can hopefully be healthy enough to pass this hobby on to my grandchildren some day.

For me, the most important thing I learned from this was that you can get more lead by taking your batteries to the scrap yard and getting cash to buy lead.

One more thought and I will get off my soap box: When you buy that lead ingot from eBay, scrap yard, other forum member.....how do you know where it really came from?

[Beagle333]

Thanks for the test. Thanks for the results. Gonna buy my lead from smelted WW on here when I need any.

[RedRiver]

Funny thing, I don't even like the smelly fumes from the adhesive that comes from smelting stick-on wheel weights

I can't imagine the smells from cookin' up some car batteries ...

No smell whatsoever

[MaryB]

Question is, what is in the dross? And I wonder of that was an older battery not a new one with the goofy plate chemistry.

[therealhitman]

I am disappointed in all the people who jumped on him for doing something they would not do.

My thoughts exactly.

[M-Tecs]

In the late 60's and early 70's a friend of my dads owned a road construction company. The batteries for the equipment were massive. When they went bad they were just piled in the back 40. He had very large steel burn pit. He made a system to smelt them in the burn pit. The whole batteries went in. Most were 6 volt and they seemed to have high antimony content. The lead was donated to the 7th Calvary re-enactment club I cast and reloaded for. We got about 3,000 pounds lead alloy.

The manufactures claimed todays batteries are much different. http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal20...008PROOF_5.pdf I do believe the manufactures specs. Other than the acid issue until maintenance free came about melting lead from batteries was common. The warnings started with maintenance free batteries.

Based on the sample of one battery making any claims beyond that one battery is irresponsible and quite frankly if it was the common maintenance free car battery the results are highly suspect. Until the waste stream is analyzed any test is half-assed at best.

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm

Salvaged battery lead should be avoided at all costs. Since the advent of the maintenance free battery the lead content has been reduced and elements such as strontium, calcium and others have been added. Most of these elements cast very poorly, ruin a pot of good alloy they are blended with and are extremely toxic. The quantity and quality of lead from batteries is not worth the risk or the effort. From "Linstrum" on the Castboolits forum - Maintenance free/low maintenance batteries use calcium metal-doped lead to catalyze the hydrogen gas. The lead alloy used in batteries also contains a bit of antimony and arsenic to help harden and strengthen the lead. When hydrogen comes in contact with arsenic and antimony, the hydrogen reacts to form ammonia analogues called arsine and stibine, AsH3 and SbH3. In World War One the Germans experimented with these as war gases. As such they were highly effective since they are deadly in amounts too small to easily detect

[Peregrine]

there is fluorine gas waiting to be released.

Where does the fluorine come from?

[mozeppa]

BNE....just a question.....do you shoot?

and if you shoot do you wear latex rubber gloves to load them too?

not being snarky.

[BNE]

BNE....just a question.....do you shoot?

and if you shoot do you wear latex rubber gloves to load them too?

not being snarky.

Ok, that's funny. Yes, I'm a shooter, and no, I do not wear gloves while shooting. Don't get me wrong, I get plenty dirty, I just choose to limit my exposure when I can. I have worked with lead oxide and lead alloys off and on my whole career. It can be dangerous if simple precautions are not taken. I have performed or overseen thousands of analytical tests also.

This was not a Design Of Experiment nor was it meant to be a d DOE. It is one data point. I just get annoyed at people who snipe at someone for doing something they are not willing to do themselves.

[MaryB]

When sorting wheel weights I wear gloves. Once in ingot form I am not as fussy because it is clean lead with no oxidation on the surface to speak of.

[bajacoop]

Unless you can process in a furnace hot enough to to break down the lead sulfate paste into lead and sulfur emissions there is not enough to worry about. Places that recycle batteries for the lead are getting almost all the lead from the paste. They use a chemical reaction to go from a lead sulfate paste to a lead carbonate paste and then process in a reverb furnace and blast furnace to get the lead from the paste.

[edp2k]

> I am disappointed in all the people who jumped on him for doing something they would not do.
> I just get annoyed at people who snipe at someone for doing something they are not willing to do themselves.


Wow. Just Wow. Many people are not willing to play Russian Roulette either.


I am disappointed and annoyed by all the people:


1. who say the manufacturer is lying about what they put in their product.
why on earth would the manufacturer do that?


2. are in denial when people with knowledge and experience point out
well documented serious chemical dangers, and say these people don't
know what they are talking about. In reality these people are trying
to keep someone from getting sick or killed and they are being told they
are talking nonsense.


3. say "see, I proved every one wrong! RESULTS ARE IN!" based on a
flawed backyard stunt (0.0% impurities? really? not likely) and then
other people read that "it's SAFE!", and based on one likely flawed
data point, proceed to put themselves and innocent people around them
in danger because one person claims to be a know it all.


Remember, dross from the smelt later exposed to water can produce poison gas
days after you smelted.


> Calibration: Yes, by the manufacturer.


What counts is now, not before it left the factory.


> Verified by one of our customers whose parts are used in mission critical military equipment.


You know as well as I that being a manufacturer of "mission critical
military equipment" is no golden guarantee that everything they do,
make or test is accurate. Their equipment can go out of cal just like
everyone else's, or be used incorrectly.


They put their pants on one leg at a time just like everyone else.


Trotting out the "military" buzzword is just a version of "Argument
from authority".

[leeggen]

In my opinion it is up to each of us to experment, as long as it is done safely. Many of us have used whatever powder we had on hand to down load. Some have even up loaded over max where I myself would not go to. Red River choose to do this battery exp. to prove to himself about lead batteries. From what he has posted I think he was safe in what he done. Was it worth it, even he stated no. Get off his back you were not involved you did not get exposed to any gas nor acid fumes. Thanks Red river for the expermint now I know I won't ever try it. My uncle when he was a kid used to melt them down for his dad to use. He is still alive and as old as me.
CD