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Thread: Need advice loading .45-70

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy iplaywithnoshoes's Avatar
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    Need advice loading .45-70

    I read through a few threads here yesterday and discovered that my once loved (and published) 13.7gr Unique load is unsuitable for .45-70 due to overwhelming reports of gradually rung chambers. In all large straight wall cases in fact, fast burning pistol powders are no good for chamber longevity due to hammering pressure waves at the bullet base due high compressibility in the air space.

    Long story short, it looks like my options are limited to bulky smokeless powders (3031, Trail Boss, Varget), duplexing ball powder, and Black Powder/Muzzleloader Propellants. The third however seems to have the best accuracy potential and lowest SD so I have a few questions:

    I am looking strongly at BH209, I happen to have some. What kind of loading practices will differ from regular Black Powder? What wads or compression have any of you used? Do I just fill the case and compress or follow the load data? The powder is unbelievably expensive but I fear ruining my new barrel with just the slightest bit of residue left over from Black Powder or Pyrodex. I'm open to using them but I need a fail safe cleaning method since I'm in a fairly humid environment in storage.

    I think that's it. Rant was from some initial frustration learning about reloading my favorite cartridge.

    shoe

  2. #2
    In Remembrance

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    I load 25 grains of 2400 without wads or fillers and have had zero evidence of anything wrong. After over a 1k of 405 lead boolits down the barrell, the chamber and barrel still look new. As for SD mine is 6. Can't get much better than that. Don't worry about "rung" chambers unless you are putting a wad over the powder and leavin a space between that and the base of the bullet. Just my 2 cents.
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master Skipper's Avatar
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    +1 on aspangler's advice. I've been shooting 12 grains of Unique for 41 years now. No damage.
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  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    2ndAmendmentNut's Avatar
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    Need advice loading .45-70

    Most (including myself) advise against pistol powder in the 45-70 because of how easy it would be to double charge the case. My go to smokeless powder is RX7 (Reloader 7). For Black powder I have only ever tried Goex 2fg.


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  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Didn't say where you read it, but you'll find anything on the internet if you look. The fact that you read it somewhere simply doesn't make it so. I don't know anyone who ringed a chamber on a 45-70 shooting Unique and I do know of a lot of people shooting it. However, it's your gun so do as you please. For me, Unique, 2400, and a few others are still on my loading list. I've owned several 45-70s and never had a problem. Whoever wrote that might have been stuffing fillers (the wrong kind of fillers) in with the powder and blamed his problems on the powder.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I don't do much with BH209 or the other substitutes. In 45-70 2F or 1 1/2F of Olde Ensford or Swiss brand powders and perform very well in my rifles. My 45-70 load of 67 grns 1 1/2 old ensford with the 535 postel gives right around 1200 fps, and a extreme spread of 12 fps. Its more than capable of hitting rams at 500yds all day long. Start with the granulation of Black Powder at the base of the bullet with a .060 wad. No air space. and test it. If possible chronograph and watch extreme spreads and standard deviations. Make note of velocity. Work up in 3 grns increments adding powder and compression to the load. The ES and Sd numbers will slowly drop becoming more consistant and accuracy should improve as you go. When you get to the accuracy level velocity level you want then test at the mid point. After finding the basic load then test primers, primer wads, alloys, and seating depths.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    My advice would be to try some good black powder such as Swiss 1 1/2fg, cleaning is no problem, and accuracy should be good, either way you will have to clean your gun and your empty brass.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy


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    Several 45-70 1886 Winchester's in the family that my dad purchased back in the 50's and 60's, probably 90% of the loads fired through them are cast bullets with 2400 and no issues at all. As mentioned the only downside is the potential for a double charge.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master Skipper's Avatar
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    As mentioned the only downside is the potential for a double charge.


    All the more reason to keep our heads out of our a** while reloading.
    The strongest reason for the people to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against the tyranny of government.
    -- Thomas Jefferson

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy iplaywithnoshoes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aspangler View Post
    I load 25 grains of 2400 without wads or fillers and have had zero evidence of anything wrong. After over a 1k of 405 lead boolits down the barrell, the chamber and barrel still look new. As for SD mine is 6. Can't get much better than that. Don't worry about "rung" chambers unless you are putting a wad over the powder and leavin a space between that and the base of the bullet. Just my 2 cents.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndAmendmentNut View Post
    Most (including myself) advise against pistol powder in the 45-70 because of how easy it would be to double charge the case. My go to smokeless powder is RX7 (Reloader 7). For Black powder I have only ever tried Goex 2fg.


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    Quote Originally Posted by NSB View Post
    Didn't say where you read it, but you'll find anything on the internet if you look. The fact that you read it somewhere simply doesn't make it so. I don't know anyone who ringed a chamber on a 45-70 shooting Unique and I do know of a lot of people shooting it. However, it's your gun so do as you please. For me, Unique, 2400, and a few others are still on my loading list. I've owned several 45-70s and never had a problem. Whoever wrote that might have been stuffing fillers (the wrong kind of fillers) in with the powder and blamed his problems on the powder.
    Quote Originally Posted by hpbear101 View Post
    Several 45-70 1886 Winchester's in the family that my dad purchased back in the 50's and 60's, probably 90% of the loads fired through them are cast bullets with 2400 and no issues at all. As mentioned the only downside is the potential for a double charge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skipper View Post
    All the more reason to keep our heads out of our a** while reloading.[/COLOR]
    Yes, the double charge scenario is real. I weigh all of my final cartridges and since I know that they don't vary by more than 5gr. with fouling, and cast weight tolerances; it's easy to spot one that has been overcharged. I also don't use any filler since it exacerbates the leading problem and causes lead rings, especially with heavier bullets.

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy iplaywithnoshoes's Avatar
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    There have been several threads here detailing large straight wall cases with pistol burn rate powders causing ringing. It's also possible that I started to see these 'machine marks' on my cases after awhile with a different .45-70 barrel.

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...hamber-Ringing

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/arch...p/t-27160.html

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/arch...hp/t-1514.html

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/arch.../t-135349.html

    I seem to be getting just as much evidence of the contrary though. Doesn't anyone actually measure the air space with the wad?

    shoe
    Last edited by iplaywithnoshoes; 02-17-2017 at 03:05 PM.

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy Big Mak's Avatar
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    I put my method into a short video for BP 45-70.
    I personally like the Montana Compression die, and I compress about .150, using a vegetable wad. When the bullet is seated, it adds about .025 more compression.
    The volume amount is dependent upon the bullet type and powder type.

    Here is the vid, I've since improved my accuracy with a deeper seated bullet and better crimp.


  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy iplaywithnoshoes's Avatar
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    I'm feeling a little better about the smokeless loads right now. I bought some wads and a wad punch and may attempt some BH209 loads before going full black. How thick of a veggie wad are you using Big Mak?


    I was only able to find .125" felt wads from Track of the Wolf available. Does that severely limit the compression and charge I can stuff in the case with say a typical 405gr bullet?

    shoe

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy Big Mak's Avatar
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    .060.
    I've used .030 before.
    I can't speak for .125, haven't used them.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Unique might ring the chamber of a barely steel (silly putty metal) barrel in an ancient original Springfield or similar. You can do the math but I have burned up 2 lbs of Unique (loaded with ~ 13 grains) and 300 grain bullets in a variety of modern 45-70s and so far I have not seen any ringed chambers.
    If Unique rings chambers, Lyman is out of line for listing such loads for more than 50 years.
    EDG

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Using fast-burning powders is not what rings chambers.

    USING WADS! is what rings chambers!!!!!!~
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy Big Mak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    Using fast-burning powders is not what rings chambers.

    USING WADS! is what rings chambers!!!!!!~
    You mean using wads with smokeless powder I assume? Because everyone I know uses a wad with BP to prevent bullet base deformation.
    I do not use wads with smokelss.

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Mak View Post
    You mean using wads with smokeless powder I assume? Because everyone I know uses a wad with BP to prevent bullet base deformation.
    I do not use wads with smokelss.
    Correct.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
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    Actually, using wads with airspace is what rings chambers - it is the air compression that does it, and I'd not bet it wouldn't happen with BP as well.
    BP wad is carefully used without airspace.
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  20. #20
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Giving someone information loading smokeless powder in a cartridge that might be used in a old weak rifle actions that are still out there is a Lawyers dream building his retirement no matter how good your intentions are trying to help him. I personally have seen three rifles destroyed and two shooters hauled off in a meat wagon with serious hand injuries. One was standing off to my right 15 feet.
    Someone asking what to use for a load must not have much experience loading these old rounds or have not read the warnings in loading manuals. Or someone not in a discussion reads the advice given and gets hurt he will say hey Joe Blow said it was his load he used for many years. Yes I have heard this said in a discussion in camp, "I been using this load for many years" and the damage happen the very next day.
    Be careful.
    Also keep in mind. The potential of a light load using the wrong powder is just as dangerous as a over load.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check