Berthier 1916 reduced loads

[artu44]

I think I'm asking for nothing new, but I need to be assured. My mousqueton Berthier has an oversized chamber while LEE dies are (I cannot understand why) made for a .323 bullet. Now, I have partizan fmj .327 bullets made just for 8x50R lebel but the neck of the fired case is so large that, with no sizing, bullet will drop on the powder so I was forced to size just 1/16" of the neck with the Lee die just to prevent bullet from falling. I couldn't size all neck otherwise the .327 bullet would have crushed the case. Well, because I have a lot of fun with reduced loads in my argentine Mausers, I had the idea to do the same with the Berthier so I bought a .329 Lee mould for the Hungarian Mannlicher then I forced a cast bullet through the bore just to measure a .327 between lands of rifling and I've noticed it enter with a little friction in a fired case. The question is: may I modify 8x56R dies and load safely my cast .329 as is with 13 grais Unique or I have to size these boolits .327 or .328? Thanks guys.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hello, artu44.

I do not have an answer for your questions, but can discuss it with you. First, I own a 1907/15 Berthier. My reference books state that the 8mm Lebel cartridge uses .323" diameter bullets. That is what I use in my rifle, and it shoots them satisfactorily. I have not slugged the bore, but if it was .327" I would expect it to be very inaccurate, and it is not. I also use Lee dies for this cartridge. Further, .323" bullets are not loose in the neck of a fired cartridge to the point of falling into the powder. So there is something very different about our two rifles.

I also have several 1895 Austro-Hungarian Mannlicher rifles that supposedly use .329" bullets, but the actual measurements of the bores (I have slugged all of them) varies from .331" to .336". I have the Lee .329 mold and the bullets shoot poorly in all of these rifles.

The information you have provided about having forced a .329" bullet through your rifle's bore and then measuring it to be .327" is just about the same as slugging the bore, although usually a slug of somewhat larger diameter would be used. But I would say that your results are a pretty good indication of the actual size, and it is a very common thing to use a cast bullet of .002" larger than bore size in finding an accurate load. So I believe that your proposed load of the .329" bullet and 13 grains of Unique is safe, but also believe that it may not seal well in the chamber when fired; and you may experience some blowback with black, sooty streaks on the cases. You will probably do better with a larger charge of a different slower burning powder, but only experimentation will tell what is the best load.

As for the bore size discrepancy between your rifle and mine, no precise explanation is possible other than to say that these rifles saw two World Wars and many smaller ones and have been all over Europe and other parts of the world for 100 years now, and anything is possible. The size difference could be due to bore wear, lack of maintenance, or re-barreling with a barrel made by someone other than the original manufacturer who's tooling was not so precise. It is interesting that Privi Partizan loads .327" bullets, and although they match your bore's measurements I would be reluctant to shoot them in my rifle. I had two boxes of very old Remington ammunition (one box left) and the bullets measure .323".

Perhaps you will revisit this thread and keep us posted on your results? I would find them interesting, as I'm sure others would also.


Attachment 188195
Click to enlarge.

[btreanor]

8mm Lebel (8x50R) bores are typically in the 0.325" to 0.327" range (at least in the 6 or so Berthier rifles I've owned). I use the Lee 0.329 mould (and size to 0.329") for my 8x50R rifles. I use the same mould and size to 0.327" for my Yugo M48 8x57 which has a 0.325" bore.

I don't think modifying the 8x56R dies is the way to go because I don't think the fatter 8x50R brass will fit up in the 8x56R die. I would use the 8x50R dies to resize/decap the brass, and then I would use a Lyman 8mm "M" die to open the neck up enough to accept the 0.329" boolits. (You might be able to accomplish the same thing with the Lee Universal expanding die). If you cast your 0.329" boolits out of a hard alloy and water drop them, they should be hard enough to resist deforming when they are seated in the brass.

If you lived in the US, I would recommend getting a custom expanding plug from Buckshot to put in your Lyman M Die, but I don't think he ships overseas.

Hope that helps!

Bill

[elk hunter]

A Lyman "M" die would be what I would look at. You could then size your case in the Lee die then expand the neck to whatever ID you need to load your cast bullet. I don't know all the expander plug sizes that Lyman makes for the "M" die but, they are easy enough to make or put in a drill press and file turn down so you can have any size you want.

[artu44]

Thanks guys. Gebirgsjager I dont think your rifle could have a .323 rifling and I suggest you to do some slugging just for curiosity. The reason is cause the most WWI used french lebel bullet, the solid brass model D, was officially 8,3 mm (see the drawing) that in inches means .32677. This torpedo shaped bullet was an oddity having the big diameter outside the neck so the neck can sized actually with a .323 die. In 1932 the adopted the more normal "N" bullet (lead fmj) so they had to enlarge the chamber neck. For it never fire an N bullet in a D rifle otherwise the neck will stuck in the narrow chamber.
Cosidering suggestions I think I can really buy cheap hungarian lee dies because this way I have already the correct .329 decapper/enlarger and with my lathe is easy to modify it as neck only sizing die.
BTW In France they have tons of WWI era brass D bullets at decent price.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Thanks for the information and diagram, artu44. The .323 size neck explains a lot, and why some literature here advises to load it as an 8mm with .323 bullets. I've never seen the Balle D bullets for sale here, but the .323 is plentiful. I like your idea of using the Lee .329 bullet, and will give it a try. It would be nice if you would keep us posted on your experiments.

[artu44]

Gebirgsjager, in order to use .329 Lee bullets you have first assured that your rifle has an "N" chamber. If so ther is a capital N on the receiver ring, as per pic.

[artu44]

This page is a sort of french auction site. You can find there ads for solid brass D Lebel bullets. These bullets are all marked for year and manufacturers and many of them are relics from WWI trenches reconditioned looking like news.
http://www.naturabuy.fr/adsearch.php...bel&univers=no

[artu44]

This morning I was caught by "reloading raptus" so I casted few .329 bullets in front at 12 grs of Vihtavuori N320. Too bad at present I had no alox nor grease so I've "lubricated" bullets with ultrafine lapping paste, the one used for engine valves. Considering that my bore is a bit on the dark side I hope it would be better after the auto lapping. Here's my mousqueton outfit ready for the Sahara expedition. Tomorrow I'll go to the range with very little illusions to test the thing at 55 yds.

[artu44]

The test was a disaster with bullets in a 8"circle at 55 yds. But most it's my fault: old eyes plus nervous trigger finger. Anyway I'll continue with these amusing loads. Today arrived 8X56 Hungarian dies and waiting for their reworking, I'll put the .329 decapper expander in the .323 Lee die. I was so silly to think that a case fired in an "N" chamber could have its neck calibrated in a .323 die then expanded to .329. Of course the case was well lubricated but Partizan cases cannot stand the thing. Next step is to open up the die in the neck area to .329.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

artu44--What exactly are we looking at here in the picture (above)? Did the bottom case's shoulder collapse when fired, or is it from running it into the wrong die? Or what?

[.455 Webley]

That neck looks like it sized a little bit just before it caved in. But it sounded like he just took the .329 expander and put it in his Lebel die. I have heard that works. Hope he clears this up as i was just about to order that expander and try it out.

[artu44]

Well, my rifle chamber is an "N" type, that means neck in 1932 was reamed to accomodate a modern full diameter .327 bullet in place of the same caliber old "D"bullet which has a step for an undersized neck diameter (something like a .22lr round, bullet has the same diameter as the neck). Looking for suitable mould, the only one was the Lee .329 for Steyr M95 Hungarian so the Lee Lebel die set in .323, while suitable for model "D" bullets (God knows why cause production stopped in 1932) are undersized if employed with my mould as well with Partizan .327 FMJ bullets. When at first I handloaded these Partizan bullets, being my chamber a bit worn, I had the bad surprise to find bullet falling inside the case but on the other side I did'nt want to stress the case with the 323 neck sizing die so I gently pushed the case inside the die just to choke the case mouth to prevent bullet from falling. All this mess cause I haven't yet the .329 decapper/expander. Yesterday the .329 hungarian set arrived and I swapped expander with Lebel set having a .323 neck sizing die with the .329 decapper/expander. After having well lubricate the case the result was the one in the pic: the effort to calibrate the whole neck to .323 caused the shoulder collapsed.
Next step will be open up the lebel die in the neck area.