Update on forming .32 Long Colt brass...

[Harry O]

We had a long thread here a while back on forming .32 Long Colt brass. I formed a .32 S&W Long case in a Lee 0.323” sizer. With a solid shell “holder”, it forms all the way to the base (wax case lube is absolutely necessary). Then I ran it through a Lee 0.314” sizer. It would go down to the front of the solid base (around the primer), but it would NOT go down to the base. I then turned down the “belt” with a file while mounted in a drill. It was suggested during the thread that I might get a custom Lee sizer in-between the two sizers I have.


I decided to try that. I ordered a 0.319” sizer from Lee. Took about 3 weeks to arrive. It looked good, was correctly sized, and I immediately tried it out. I was able to run the shell fully into the sizer down to the base just like I do with the 0.323" sizer. Because of the springback, it came out larger than the sizer, but it was smaller than I had been getting from the original two sizers. Again, the 0.314” sizer would not go all the way down, forming a belt to be filed off, but it is less in diameter than it was before. That means that the filing takes a lot less time.


I have pressed some primers into a few of them and did not find any problems there. I am not sure where the compressed brass goes, but it is not intruding into the primer pocket. I will be sectioning at least one to see how much thicker the wall is than what I made before.


Thanks for the suggestions, guys.



On the left is a previous picture of (left) a 32 S&W Long run through the 0.323" sizer. Running it thorough the 0.319" sizer looks very much the same. The center case is after it was run through 0.314" sizer. Now that I am using the intermediate sizer, the belt is less pronounced. The case on the right is after the belt is filed off. The final OD is approx. 0.316". The picture on the right is the solid shell-holder I use to run the cases fully up into the sizers. I then use a rod and a leather hammer to drive them out.

[dbosman]

Neat. Thanks for sharing.

[Nueces]

I think the 'extra brass' may be going into length, which would be easy to check.

Very nice work, Harry O.

[The Goose]

Great work. Thanks.

[Harry O]

I think the 'extra brass' may be going into length, which would be easy to check.

You are probably right. It is not important, though. I trim them to 0.920" for hollow-base bullets or to 0.780" for heel-base bullets after forming.

[Chev. William]

Harry O,
I am curious about your Forming Process As You State that you have not been able to form the Base to desired .314" diameter without filing it to Diameter in a Drill Motor.

Does your ".314" Sizer Die have have a Radius on the Mouth of the Die?
If so, then What is causing you to be unable to push the .319" diameter Case into the die all the way to the top of the rim? .319"-.314"= .005" which is, inn my experience, a small enough difference in Diameter to swage down normally.
If your die has both a radius and a Taper in the Mouth, of course the Base would be slightly Larger than the Body walls after the swage operation.

Also How Are Your Primer Pockets coming out?
In my Experiments; I use an RCBS Primer Pocket Swaging Punch to support the Primer pocket during my Swaging Process so I do not need to 'ream' them later.
I do Pass a .078" (5/64") Drill through the Flash holes after my Swaging Process to insure my Decapping Punches will fit.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Harry O]

Chev. William: The 0.323" die sizes the base of the case from 0.335" to about 0.328" even though it goes all the way to the base (I presume that this is because of springback in the brass). The 0.319" die sizes the base to about 0.322"-0.323" after springback (it also goes all the way to the base). The 0.314" die will not go all the way to the base even after using the intermediate sizer. It stops before it goes all the way down. It doesn't matter how much I force it (I am using an RCBS "O" press for forming now -- no hydraulics, but it is plenty heavy). The upper part of the sized case is 0.316" (plus or minus 0.001"). The lower part used to be 0.328"OD and had to be filed the rest of the way to about 0.316". The lower part is now about 0.322"OD so I have quite a bit less to file off now.

All three of the sizers had a 45 degree chamfer (not a radius) in the bottom 3/16" or so as they came from Lee. So, the sizer did nothing in the bottom 3/16" of the case. I ground down the length of the sizer so that the chamfer is now about 1/16". So it forms down to within 1/16" of the top of the rim. I need that much chamfer to get the larger cases started into the smaller holes.

I had no problems at all with seating primers in the original formed cases (I made about 200 of them) and I have fired them 2 or 3 times so far (there were some losses with the early ones at the first firing -- there were less failures as I gained experience). I formed a few with the new intermediate sizer and then seated primers in three of them. Again, no problems, but they seem to take a little more force to seat them. No problem that needs to be addressed, though.

Passing the drill through the flash holes sounds like a good idea. I occasionally had slight problems with getting the Lee trim piece through the flash hole when trimming. Again, no major problem, but it would not take long to run the drill through and there would not be any problem at all then.

[Chev. William]

Harry O,
From your description, I gather that you are using "Lee Lube and Size kit" type Sizing dies rather than "Lee Cartridge Sizing Dies" for your Case sizing projects.

May I suggest you chuck up a Split Dowel with some "Emery Paper" in the split and work a Short "Taper" into your Champfered Sizing die. The Sharp Transition from The 45 degree Taper to the Sizing bore is probably what your cases are 'stopping' on. My Sizing Dies all have a radius on the Mouth rather than a champfer, so there is a More Smooth Transition from Mouth to sizing bore.

From My Swaged Brass, I also found there is a short taper of very Shallow angle between the Mouth radius and the Sizing bore of my Carbide Ring sizing dies. this seems to leave a short tapered section from the Rim up to the Sized Wall Web area of my swaged cases, about 1/8" to 3/16" high and about .002" to .003" larger than the Final body diameter just above the rim and body diameter at the top.

Contemplating upon this; it would seem a "cubic spiral" transition from the Mouth Radius to the Sizing Bore would be optimum shape but Really hard to make in practice.

Cubic Spirals are used in Railroading, and Model Railroading, to ease transitions to and from Straight track to curves of constant radius, making the 'passenger ride' smoother and more comfortable than an abrupt change from Constant radius turn to straight, Tangent, track running.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[NorthCoastBigBore]

Bit of a bump, but I'd been meaning to try this - and finally did - over the Christmas break. Also converted my Favorite to .32 Colt (CF), painfully easy conversion wish I'd done it ages ago.

At any rate, I used the Lee sizing dies at .323" then .314" as you suggest above; then I chuck the case in the lathe & turn off the "belt". I made a steel mandrel for inside the case so that I can tighten it without worry. After that I can size & lube as normal, so far it works good.



Thanks for this tip!

I should add, to address Chev William's question above, I had to chamfer my primer pockets a bit but they have all seated so far. I've finished most of the first 100 and I've loaded 50 so far.

[kootne]

NorthCoastBigbore, your brass looks good, have fun with the Stevens. Do you mind me asking what your bullet is?
Thanks,
Dennis

[NorthCoastBigBore]

NorthCoastBigbore, your brass looks good, have fun with the Stevens. Do you mind me asking what your bullet is?
Thanks,
Dennis

Thanks Dennis; it's a heeled 90 grain bullet although I am afraid I don't know the mold number, I'm getting them from another guy who does a great job on them. Casting that heel (or maybe the sizing of that heel?) looks like a bit of an art? If I find out the mold I'll pass it along.

[Chev. William]

Northcoastbigbore,
Looks like you have a very good process to reform cases going.
It sounds like both You and Harry O are having similar results with similar processes, which is good as it confirms that the process is repeatable by others.

How about a few photos of your converted Stevens "Favorite"?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[NorthCoastBigBore]

Northcoastbigbore,
Looks like you have a very good process to reform cases going.
It sound slike both You and Harry O are having similar results with similar processes, which is good as it confirms that the process is repeatable by others.

How about a few photos of your converted Stevens "Favorite"?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Thank you sir; yes so far so good... and here are a couple of initial pictures, they aren't the best but you get the idea. I was planning on getting out today but between getting things ready for New Years, and breaking my 4wd, I didn't.

This is the breech block after re-drilling the firing pin hole. I had to make a new firing pin with an offset, but not a big deal at all.


Here it is on the range, it was brutally cold and windy so it was basically a function test (with shorts at that time), I froze my fingers after 20 or 30 rounds and the wind was tearing me up so bad I couldn't see the target but hey...



I'll get some better ones hopefully tomorrow if I can sneak out with it for a few minutes.

[NorthCoastBigBore]

Had it out today and it ran flawlessly. Accuracy was acceptable given the sights and my eyesight; but that will be the next journey. It was frigid again today so I ran 30 of these Longs through it, my 5 year old was with me and he tried it out as well - and also persuaded me to give up early I didn't double check him and he didn't have a hat or gloves, so...

At any rate, it seems to be noticeably more accurate with the longs than the shorts, no surprise given that jump in the chamber using shorts.

Backtracking a little, further to Chev William's request above, I found some more photos of the conversion. This was the punch I made that fit snugly inside a .32 Colt case, and went through the primer hole. Made it from drill rod and heat treated & tempered - but in reality you could get away with much more basic approach. For me it's just learnin' and practicin'



This is another view of the breech block, before re-drilling. Note the bushing I made to tighten up the action. It wasn't bad but these often need a bit of tightening. I haven't made a new screw set for this yet, but I will using drill rod or some other known steel. The stock pins are small diameter (IIRC 0.185"?), and of course in these old actions they take the majority of the force, so I'll go slightly larger as well and thread to a common pitch.



Here she is on the range today...I have somne of the targets but they aren't anything to write home about. Not terrible but that will be the next journey on this rifle I guess:

[Chev. William]

Northcoastbigbore,
It might become an assembly nightmare but . . . have you considered modifying the Breech Block Pivot Pin bearing areas to reduce the Unsupported sections loaded in bending-shear? These are between the receiver inside wall and the Sides of the Breech Block.
Since you added a bushing already for that pivot in the Breech Block it 'might' be possible to extend it in length some. That depends on the assembly clearances you have in your , apparently 1894, Favorite action.

I know the Breech Block and lever widths are usually the same in the 1894 version with the pre-assembled 'Breech Block-Link-Lever' combination being slid into the receiver from the lever opening.

My 1894 Breech Blocks are about .5" wide. How does this compare to your Breech block width(s)?

Does your Breech Block(s) 'bear' against the two rear corner 'shoulders' of the receiver when Closed (in battery position)?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[NorthCoastBigBore]

Hi Chev.;
Yes in fact I looked at ways to do this when I made that bushing. Unfortunately there was no way to get the breech block into the receiver with any additional width.

One thing that comes to mind that might work, is to bush each side of the receiver with a threaded bushing that the breech block pin goes through; then one could fine tune the width inside that "casting gap" and silver solder (or even red loctite), then file the outside flush (if a refinish is in the cards anyway). Just thinking out loud here...

Yessir my breech block mics out at an even 0.500" in fact I'd considered making a new one from scratch, given that I can get nominal and hardenable/temperable steel in .500" thickness locally.

My breech block is flush on the barrel stub. It doesn't contact the receiver. I'll toss up a photo when I get the chance.

**On the .32 LC cases, I read today in one of Harry O's other (older) threads that he needed to shorten some of his reformed brass, mine chamber in my Favorite (and shoot well as I say above), any other knowledge of that being an issue?**

[Chev. William]

Northcoastbigbore,
RE: "**On the .32 LC cases, I read today in one of Harry O's other (older) threads that he needed to shorten some of his reformed brass, mine chamber in my Favorite (and shoot well as I say above), any other knowledge of that being an issue?**"

The .32 Colt "Long" has been Made with case lengths ranging from about 0.760" to about 0.930" Using primarily heeled Bullets of varying exposed Lead nose lengths. the most recent variation is to use a lighter weight inside Lubed Hollow base design bullet of smaller diameter.
Obviously if the Rifle is chambered specific to one of the 'shorter cartridge overall lenghts it may have problems with the longer ones.
An example is my own .32 Long Barrel which likes the Accurate mold #311090A bullet in a 0.912" Case length. This puts the bullet close to but not touching the beginning of the rifling but the case mouth short of the maximum chamber length step transition between Case Body diameter and slightly smaller freebore area before the Throat taper starts.
I can use shorter cases with an increased clearance between bullet and rifling; but it seems overall accuracy begins to suffer. Longer case lengths run the chance of sudden pressure increases upon firing.
Worst case is if the case mouth of the loaded cartridge touches the start of the 'freebore' BEFORE discharge. That can prevent the Mouth from expanding and releasing the bullet with a Sudden Pressure Spike extruding the Bullet heel through the constriction presented by the un-expanded case Crimp edge.
I found this out by Accidental Experimental observations early in my Developments.
If you intend to use Ideal #299153 bullets, consider a slightly shorter case as the bullet nose is longer than my #311090A bullet.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[NorthCoastBigBore]

Chev William - thank you for that clarification.

No signs of excess pressure on mine so far, and as I say they chamber well - but I'll measure things out and shorten the cases if it looks like I ought to.

I am using a solid base bullet (as I say above in response to Kootne, not certain of the actual mold #)

[rbertalotto]

Some more info here:

http://rvbprecision.com/shooting/wan...-model-92.html