Maximum Meplat width for close range dangerous or heavy game ???

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Great looking boolits. Are you using Hornady or Starline brass ?
So the 325 gr boolit has the same .4" meplat ?
That is some good shooting from my stand point. I can't see the sights well enough To shoot that well.

[pmer]

Yes they are Starline brass, I got the Tee shirt too. They both have the same meplat as far as I tell by looking at them. The drawing shows the 380V to have a .395 meplat. Here is a drawing from the Accurate Molds website. The cylinder in my Bisley Blackhawk still has .150'' room to spare so there could be some boolit jump and the cylinder and it still could turn in emergency. I haven't tried this one handed, might be hard to do. I suppose your DA Super Redhawk has a little more weight. I imagine DA is easier to use under stress and it has one more shot too.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Just for general knowledge, as to my comment concerning one handed use of a bear defense handgun. I personally know or am acquainted with 7 people in just Hoonah that have been under a brown bear . And , I know a few other people that have been bit , swatted and /or chewed on by brown bear. In Southeast Alaska.
If any of them would have had something like a strong loaded . 357, 41, 44 Special or Mag . 45 Colt or 480 . They all would have had them shooting while trying to hold themselves away from the bear/bears with their other hand.
It can and does happen so it's nice to be prepared if possible.
As long as one can cock and shoot or just shoot and keep control of their gun one handed . Precision accuracy isn't a requirement.

[10or45]

I was pondering similar thoughts as Fredj338 on this packable and weight/size issue. This lead me to pick up a 4.2 inch Redhawk in 45 Colt. I wanted a double action, packability, and affordability. The 500 Linebaugh is too much for my current needs. I can run Ruger only loads for the woods with H110 powered 325 grain LFN/WFN at 1100-1300fps in a smaller package. This is just a woods defense gun. If I was a Guide on horseback or handgun hunting I could justify more gun. Now I need to find the right mold. From what I've learned here so far I think a 325 grain with an 80% max meplat LFN LBT 4 cavity NOE or Accurate sounds about right in aluminum.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

10or45; I think that's a wise choice. Much better than a Smith 329 or. Kinda most S&W revolvers imho. Guns like the Mountain Lite ect. Are far better than nothing. But the Ruger is stronger. I packed a 5" Redhawk for a while in 44 Mag. I shot 320 gr LFN CPB Boolits out of it pushed by 20 or 21 gr of 296. It worked to keep me from getting bit one time when the bear was alot closer to me than my 458 was.
My hope with the 480 is more ability as a stand alone gun . That is still one hand controllable by me.

[Lloyd Smale]

doing a penetration test using wet print of wet print and bone will give you a way to compare penetration of bullets but it doesn't mirror live game. It couldn't. Just look at the difference between a deer and an elk or moose. Or the difference between a black, griz or brown bear. To even make it close you would have to use bone and not dry bone from the exact animal you are going to shoot and the bone from the exact place your going to shoot it. Yes I have done lots of penetration testing like that. More because its just fun to see how different bullets hold up. I don't remember the exact year the charging bear was at the seminar. I would guess 2004 but cant swear to it. Ill surely agree with you that the punch bullets are the ultimate penetrators. My buddy Al and I did some of the original penetration testing of kellys bullets for him.

"I don't kill water jugs or wet print"

Is not the Bone Box testing done with wet news print, and with or without the bone??? I never knew about the bear simulation. One thing the Bone Box does demonstrate is that heavy handgun bullets at slow/moderate velocities penetrate real good. The Punch brass handgun bullets penetrate like crazy.

[Lloyd Smale]

You don't learn how to stop charging grizzlys with a handgun or for that matter any gun just because you live in Alaska and are around them. You learn from actually shooting them. Its like the guy that was never in combat telling some vet how he would act under fire. If you haven't been there and done that you don't have a clue and being around a bunch of rag heads doesn't make you ready to go to Afghanistan. Fortunately ive never had to face down a charging bear or for that matter a charging anything. If I did id want the biggest gun that I could put one slug into the vitals with as quickly as possible. In my safe that means my 4 inch 500 linebaugh. A gun that ive put an easy 10k rounds through.

I'm going to hold it in two hands, not because I cant handle the recoil with one but because it about doubles the chance that I'm going to put that first shot where it belongs. Ive shot ALOT of handguns ALOT of big bore handguns. As many as anyone here or anyone you've met. The ONLY handguns id say are a bit of a challenge to hold on to with full power loads and one hand are the 475 and 500 linebaugh max guns. Could I shoot one one handed? Sure but I don't want to. Bottom line one 475 or 500 bullet that will penetrate stem to stern on a bear is a lot better weapon then something like a 357 or 41 that puts 6 into them that might make 6 inches.

It comes down to this in every big bore handgun post. The guys that don't like them or preach a smaller gun is better are the guys that just cant handle something bigger and instead of admitting that try to tear down the guys that can. Any gun is better then a stick but to me using something smaller then a heavy cast bullet (300plus grain) 44 mag handgun to protect myself against a charging 1000lb bear is grounds for being committed. Id no sooner go hunting a brown bear with a 223! Something that in fact would be a lot safer.

Bottom line is I don't have a thing to worry about. Ill never hunt a brown bear or a grizzly bear. the only bear I hunt are blacks and ive shot a bunch of them and for the most part they run the other way when shot. If they do come at you its usually because there confused and ran the wrong way, not because they want to hurt you. You on the other hand could someday run into a situation that isn't good. I hope you at least listen to some of the words of wisdom here and are properly armed and don't buy into that quick draw one handed cowboy show way of shooting. Only time id shoot something one handed is if I could smell its breath. Or the equally stupid train of though that 3 357s are better then one 475. Just look at what guides use for back up rifles. Not to many are using semi auto 243s and count on multiple hits. They use guns like the 458 and 375 because they know that what kills is a big bullet drove deep.

The jaw is the aim point of choice. Didn't say I hit it . But it it the prefect spot to shoot for.
I use 2 hands whenever I can . Naturally. However , if a person's handgun cant be controlled 1handed , What good will it be if the bear gets to you.
I think a guy would be far better off to go spend a bunch of time out in bear country than going to seminars. I doesn't cost too much to drive to Bellingham, get on the ferry and go spend a summer hangin out around alot of bears.
On forums, when the subject of Alaska comes up. I find soo much people telling other people everything they CAN'T do.
I say, if you want to really learn, go do it. Go fishing , rock hounding, gold panning , exploring. Tons of stuff a person can do up here. But, ya gotta get out in the brush to do it. That's how I learned. And most all the people who know . I posted my questions here, in the hopes I'de find someone that knew lots more than I do about the specific things I was querying. I think I have found a good bunch with tons of knowledge. But in this issue I guess I'll have to go try it out myself and report back.

[44man]

Lloyd makes a good point. Just having a gun is not enough. Then shooting a .475 and up with one hand will be a miss, barrel rise and torque is too much so you will shoot very high.
I have had guys here to shoot, one was White House secret service, the other an air marshal. Neither can hold paper at 10 yards. Glocks, etc. A plane would be full of holes and half the passengers shot. Imagine them under stress? To make matters worse were the factory loads and sights not regulated for them. Have to aim at knees to get center mass.

[Lloyd Smale]

Most guys would stuggle to place a bullet accurately using one hand on a target even using a 357. Its why NO police or military training teach one hand shooting anymore. they might touch base on it as a back up if your other hand is injured but that would be the only exception. Even a 22 is shot better two handed. Like I said if it got down to the point the bear was so close I didn't have time to do anything but draw and shoot one handed id be smelling its breath and accuracy muzzle rise and recoil would no longer matter. If I have time to draw and AIM I have time to grip the gun properly with two hands. Same goes if the gun is a j frame or small semiauto and the thing charging is coming on two legs.

Lloyd makes a good point. Just having a gun is not enough. Then shooting a .475 and up with one hand will be a miss, barrel rise and torque is too much so you will shoot very high.
I have had guys here to shoot, one was White House secret service, the other an air marshal. Neither can hold paper at 10 yards. Glocks, etc. A plane would be full of holes and half the passengers shot. Imagine them under stress? To make matters worse were the factory loads and sights not regulated for them. Have to aim at knees to get center mass.

[44man]

I have shot deer with one hand when they were on the wrong side, SRH. But when I shot at one with the .475 I must have cleared his back by 2'. No way to turn in the stand to use both hands. WOW, talk about climb, not strong enough anymore.

[Lloyd Smale]

probably aggravated by the fact that you like the bfrs. Even the bisley is a handful one handed but recoils more straight back then a plow handle gun. Ive noticed the difference more with the 44s because I tend to shoot them more and fool around with them more. My 4 5/8s Blackhawk will allways print higher on a target one handed then the same load out of my 5.5 bisley Both do shoot higher then a good two handed grip though. That and you tend to like long barreled guns and the dwell time in the barrel allows barrel flip to effect the bullet more. When I got my first 4 inch 500 bisley I noticed something strange. No gun I had every played with before had more of a tendency to shoot all bullet weights and load levels so close to the same point of aim. At 25 yards everything from a 1000 fps 400 to a 1300 fps 480 to a 1000 fps 480 and a 1300 fps 400 all shoot within 2 inches of each other a 25 yards. Cool thing with that is both my 500s are built on vaqueros so its sure nice that you don't have to fart around trying to get a good light load and a good heavy load that match the sights. You can about feed it a rock pushed by sand and hit a 2 inch bullseye. My 5.5 500 and 475s weren't that way. When I got my second 4 inch 500 I took it out to see if the same thing applied and it did. so you with heavy loads and a 7.5 inch barrel and the bfr grip frame I can sure see where the 2 foot came from. Luckily for both of us that situation RARELY occurs. I think even me with my short guns if I was forced to shoot left handed I might as well throw a rock if an animal was more then about 15 yards away. Maybe 20 years ago but anymore id just have to pass on a shot that required me to shoot one handed with any handgun at a live breathing target that wasn't trying to eat me.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I have shot deer with one hand when they were on the wrong side, SRH. But when I shot at one with the .475 I must have cleared his back by 2'. No way to turn in the stand to use both hands. WOW, talk about climb, not strong enough anymore.

My point about folks coming up to bear country was to gain experience. Maybe they would meet a friendly resident that would enjoy taking them hunting. Or would want some backup . Back before the internet we did all kinds of stuff that was totally legal . But not "a classic Alaskan Bear hunt.
That stuff can still be done. Here's an example of , the necessity to be able to shoot 1 handed. We have lots of places up here where motorized access is prohibited. So riding a bicycle is a great way to quietly get into a spot . And there are roads. Like the over 800 miles of roads along the Trans Alaska Pipeline. Or hunting in places like Thomas Bay . Or alot of places where its easy to put a Fat Bike in a skiff and go hunt or explore some closed logging road system.
Ya need to be able to steer and stop but you may need to shoot also
Or your hands may be really cold and stiff , or exhausted. Like from running a powersaw , or a pick and shovel all day . Or even hangin onto a fishing rod or pulling shrimp pots. There's a million things to do up here . One of the last things I shot with my last 4 5/8 Blackhawk 45 Colt was a 120 lb halibut. Before we started pulling my friends subsistence skate , I replaced the 325 gr Buffalo Bore bear loads with soft lead 255 gr loads that did about 800 fps. Alot quieter when reaching over the side of the boat with all the noise bouncing off the water right at my feet . Easier to manage also, And still has sufficient power to stun that fish.
Lots of times when you may , and I have, needed a powerful handgun but also needed to be able to use it 1 handed. But generally speaking it was always for very close range shooting.
Of course , I and everyone I know uses 2 hands whenever possible. But, it isn't always possible.
And percentage wise , it is a not the majority of bear problems that are great big bears. However, the most dangerous bears are the really old bears that are starving. They are truly and absolutely deadly. And sometimes they are pretty big.

[pmer]

Naa one handed isn't that bad, it can be a lot faster. Don't leave that skill on the table. I do some strong hand / weak hand up to 44 mag. Start out empty if your skeerd.

I'm just saying because one time I got too close to rattle snake and I had a 1911 on my hip. And quicker than I could think about it that 1911 came out and was making noise till it quit moving. It would've taken a couple more seconds and lots of movement to get a two handed hold and etc. One hand, no time for a site picture, just go.

Holding a flash lite is a common way to end up shooting one handed.

[44man]

Age has a lot to do with it. Once I could crush the bones in your hand, sheared up to 3/4" bolts with a wrench on semi's. Now a revolver is like a 50# barbell held out. I shot all day to win archery shoots with 82# bows.
Things went to pot and it is only a few years.
I used to sight from the bench with my guns and hit the same off hand but that has changed too. I did shoot good with one hand at one time but getting old is hell to pay. I still feel good and it does not hurt to shoot anything but was slapped hard anyway.
I hate to say it but most of you will see later.
But we never give up or quit. I always said they will find my skeleton on a stand or dragging a deer skeleton out.
I still love the big revolvers and BFR's because of accuracy even as ability to reap it is fading. How did I get to 79+? Would I carry a shorter revolver, sure.
But still the .44 is more in control then a .475 or .500 at any age. Neither shoots good from a short gun so a .480 would be better if you want bigger. Barrel and gun weight aids rise but the .475 just has the worst. It is crazy wild.
I don't worry about a following shot since you have to make the first count on a bear or load pepper shot. I don't know if bears like spices and don't want to find out. I have been very close to huge black bears, even with cubs and one that climbed my tree to a foot from my feet that I talked down. Huge boar over 400#. Bow, can't shoot down from sitting. I fear them less then a neighbors dogs. I think a cougar might be the most dangerous animal. Any big cat.
Some animals should not be shot. Why a lion unless a man killer or an elephant? I read where a man saved an elephant and he died of natural causes. A whole herd marched 100 miles to his home and circled it for days to pay tribute. It means they can think, feel and show love. Cats and fox kill for fun. lost 12 chickens to a fox once, he ate one but could not quit. I got him the next day. Cats kill birds that are not eaten and rabbits. I was hunting rabbits with a bow one day in the snow. I found cat tracks and 12 dead pheasants. I seen the cat under a billboard at the road corner. I killed it with an arrow. It had a collar too. I found the cat attacked other hunters. Big, yellow house cat let to run.
The worst was a cat that caught a new baby rabbit and was skinning the poor thing alive. Keep cats in the house or they die.

[pmer]

44 . Wow. Thanks ! . There are a couple things I dont understand tho. I don't see what you mean with the base on that boolit. I agree with the mulit grease grooves. Kinda like a grooved or driving band rifle bullet. Should reduce pressure and hopefully reduce leading. . I've had varmint rifles that couldnt on purpose hit a shotgun shell at 100 until I did a bunch of stuff to them.
The 500 JRH is a cart that has caught my attention in the past and is getting more of my attention now. Iirc the BFR was available in it. I don't know if it still is. What is the meplat diameter of your favorite 475&500 bullets ?
I emailed LBT and asked about max meplat dia. Mr Smith replied and explained to me that once a certain % is passed . The bullet will tumble inside the animal and reduce/stop straight line penetration. So, thats the reason for the 80% rule.
Limping J ; I'm planning on getting Lee dies. My last set of 480/475 L dies were RCBS. They worked fine . But I REALLY like the Lee Factory Crimp die for its ability to keep bullets from jumping their crimp. So I plan on getting Lee to make one for my 480.
Glen.

Sorry Glen, I missed this part that LBT was saying that WFN's can tumble. Was He referring to a short statured WFN like a 45 cal. 265 grain WFN? I had a box of these from Cast Performance and they were pretty stubby looking. I used these on a deer and 280 grain 44 cal. WFN on a few deer and they all worked good. Didn't notice anything that would look like they tumbled. The 280 WFN 44s from a muzzle loader turned the lungs into pink mush.

Maybe its the sectional density of this style of projectile? The only time I seen tumbling personally was from undersized boolits used in a worn out model 92 lever action 38-40 WCF.

[44man]

I never had a WFN tumble. You can get Miss direction that is not tumble, just a turn. Damage on the nose from a bone hit. But that is with any boolit.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Actually, from what I've learned . Long bullets tend to tumble alot more than short bullets.
One reason I'm thinking your 380 gr bullet may be ideal. It's a rear weighted bullet and so should keep the nose forward. Even the 325 gr boolit like is cast from the Lee 325 gr 475 mold may be really great. I think it is seriously worth investigating. If the velocity isn't run up to max but keptaround 1200-1300. That 325 would be , relatively speaking easy to shoot.

One thing I wonder about. Tho I wouldn't want to have to shoot one. Is the guys shooting 700 gr Boolits out of 500 S&Ws. ??????
Anyone know anybody that has shot those. I'm just mentally curious. Not wanting to try one.

[44man]

Actually, from what I've learned . Long bullets tend to tumble alot more than short bullets.
One reason I'm thinking your 380 gr bullet may be ideal. It's a rear weighted bullet and so should keep the nose forward. Even the 325 gr boolit like is cast from the Lee 325 gr 475 mold may be really great. I think it is seriously worth investigating. If the velocity isn't run up to max but keptaround 1200-1300. That 325 would be , relatively speaking easy to shoot.

One thing I wonder about. Tho I wouldn't want to have to shoot one. Is the guys shooting 700 gr Boolits out of 500 S&Ws. ??????
Anyone know anybody that has shot those. I'm just mentally curious. Not wanting to try one.

We tried and they don't work. Pipe dream.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

We're there any threads on them ? I know Hornady selling 500 gr bullets for the 500 Smith. Which is getting up there. I know my friend that had to use his 500 S&W 4" was shooting the 400 gr Sierra and had great preformance on a 8'9"+ brown bear that started its charge at around 32' . The penetration and damage was really quite amazing. 400 gr flat nose soft nose , pushed by 40 gr of H110.
But, that's a different subject.
For the specialized needs of bear fighting at close range I have come to rely on my G20 SF. However its not perfect as the mag can be accidentally ejected and if something pushes on the muzzle it takes the gun out of battery. However its light, holds lots of Boolits and the 220 gr cast boolits at 1200 fps penetrates pretty good. And it can pack its own flashlight. Which in itself can save your life .

[Cold Trigger Finger]

But, having to lay down a field of fire isn't my idea of great bear gun.