OE 2f in 40-65. Where to go from here?

[SgtDog0311]

Might as well come out of the closet as a Novice with BP. Nothing impressive to report so looking for suggestions. I shot these in two rifles. The first being the Money JIM409400 in a Cody Ballard with a WIN chamber that I believe is much like the Shiloh chamber. I tried comparing two primers from stock-on-hand, CCI200 and Fed210. In the Cody, bullets out to throat/lands, finger seated, with .060 Walter’s Wad. Everything was in Olde Eynsford 2f. Started at zero or near zero compression and worked up by one grain. In the Marlin Pacific pretty much the same but worked up by two grains and had a little more compression (probably a wad’s worth) for starting load at 56gr. I didn’t bell cases any more than the step up on Lyman expander from BACo so did not lay any flair down with a sizing die.

All targets at 100yds. I usually do load development at 50yds due to some degraded vision from advanced Glaucoma. I reckon the outlayers could be attributed to that but hard to say and I've shot better smokeless loads at 100yds.

For the Cody/Money these first two targets with CCI primers were the best by virtue of some core grouping but in each case I had a pair of outliers. Sorry but all the pictures are laying on their side.


With the Fed 210 primers I only had one target with equal results but still nothing impressive.


So, give it some neck tension, change primers, lay what little flair might remain down, change seating depth? Don’t think OE 1.5f is the answer since I shot a couple loads there too and they were even less impressive.

I’ll post the Saeco/Creedmoor in the Marlin Ballard (Pacific) and results in the next post. Pretty much same results/questions. Any recommendations/observations appreciated.

[SgtDog0311]

Marlin Ballard (Pacific) with relined bore and chamber with .110 tapered freebore. Trying out the Saeco and Creedmoor since these seemed to fit the chamber better than the Money bullet. Also, was hoping to test out some velocities for the Saeco that were slower, so deeper seating depth was preferred with this bullet.

The loads with the Saeco with none or light compression did better than the load with the most compression. Again, a core group with two outliers. Second target is there to see as well.


With the Creedmoor I started at 56 and went up by two grains. Found it interesting that I had a horizontal string on the first target, a vertical string on the second and then back to horizontal again. Wind was not a factor. Keep in mind these all are on their left side.


Not sure what I ought to try next... or perhaps I ought to just work on changing location of the barrel rest. Right now I'm just resting across sticks at the null spot. Also, as a side note for the previous post on the Money bullet, the Money is cast from with DanT's antimonial alloy: 97/1.5/1.5. Should be between a 20:1 and 16:1 for slump consideration.

One thing sure - this BP shooting can eat through more powder and lead than I consume finding a load with smokeless. I'm finding it a little more challenging for sure.

Wanted to say thanks to Hiwall55 for sending some Saeco and Creedmoor bullets and to Stevewhr for sending his BACo Money mould to live with me for a little while. I like all three of these bullets.

[Don McDowell]

What are you doing for fouling control?

[SgtDog0311]

BT... three long slow breaths. Temp was about 65 degrees yesterday.

[Hiwall55]

John was your flier at the beginning, middle or end of the group with the creedmoor and Saeco. And also I would try a LDPE wad with a piece of newspaper on it.
Bill

[SgtDog0311]

Bill, sorry to say I can't answer that. I was looking after each shot but had to get moving as the day went since I had to pick my granddaughter up from school and quite checking until that target was done. As luck would have it the Saeco and Creedmoor were the last of my loads. I'll watch it next time. I have never tried LDPE but I'll pick some up. What is an easy method to punch your paper out?

[Gunlaker]

I would also try a 0.060" LDPE wad, although I don't think that will make very much difference.

How far out is the bullet sitting? I assume that the first three bands are outside of the case. If you chamber a round and extract it, are the bands engraved by the rifling? Are they engraved equally all the way around?

When I use that bullet in my Shiloh I wipe between shots. Two damp Arsenal patches in normal weather, and three if it's 90 degrees or so. No dry patches as they will increase your chance of leading. Wiping with a patch on a nylon brush works best for me by far.


Edit: I was writing about the 409400M4. Sorry. Sorry the Saeco bullet I use neck tension and seat them with no grooved exposed, but the top band touches the rifling.
Chris.

[Don McDowell]

BT... three long slow breaths. Temp was about 65 degrees yesterday.

You have a core group of 3 shots very tight. So then you need to look at 2 things, either your fouling control isn't working, or you may be jumping the trigger a bit.
If you're not getting the breath from way down deep in your lungs, leaving water droplets in the tube, then you may want to stay a bit more hydrated, and add another breath. If that doesn't work you may want to look at wiping at least one damp, 2 maybe better between shots.

[country gent]

Don Ive even been known to cheat in hot dry weather and have a bottle of cold water on the line a big sip every 3 shots or so keeps me well hydrated and my breath a lot moister.

[Lead pot]

John.

I see a lot of good in those groups except for target p5 it has more vertical then it should have. I don't think your having a fouling problem with the horizontal you shot. I take it those squares are 1"?? when you have 3 shots close yours are I think it's a good start. Those fliers I think is lack of concentration not focusing on the front sight enough till it's sharp or hurrying the break with not holding a proper weld on the stock. P-5 looks like a little lead build up starting.
A good way to check if your blow tubing is good enough is to push a dry patch through after you take your usual amount of blows. If that dry patch shows any amount of greasy moisture and you don't feel a drag when you get to the end of the barrel your getting enough moisture. You will feel when you hit a dry spot doing this.

Kurt

[Hiwall55]

John, I use a press mounted wad punch, but you should have a hammer punch to try different wads and cut out newspaper

[Stevewhr]

John, those groups with the least vertical look good to me. Real good. I would shoot more of those, and ask yourself about sight picture and gun technique. I think those are better than you think. If you can take Bill and have him shoot as well. Rule out shooter issues, whether it's the eyes or technique. The close vertical are really encouraging to me. Tell me what the environmentals were like. It appears you had some wind? I'd think even 15 mph could be cause for the horizontal group.

[SgtDog0311]

Thanks for the input gentlemen.Some answers/comments.

Chris,Bullet issetting out as far as I can seat it without forcing it.None are difficult to chamber though.The Money visibly engraves and has threelube grooves exposed.On both the Saecoand the Creedmoore they are out as far as it takes to see signs of the groovediameter touching the first driving band.The Saeco has scuffs you can see well enough without a magnifier on thebore riding section as well.TheCreedmoor has a little smaller diameter so not equal all the way around as Ithink it scuffs a little as it’s guided in – probably the bottom side but I’ll pay moreattention next time I chamber and extract one.

If I go to wiping I’ll follow the tips offered.

Don,I’ll pay moreattention to “jumping the trigger”.Couldbe a contributor.Usually I’m prettycaution about surprising myself but once I did notice my shoulder bracing whenI didn’t like the moment and held off for another breath.

Wayne,I see moistureflowing in the clear tube.Might oughtto hold off on the Skoal while shooting – not sure a mouthful of spit is ahindrance or helpJ

Kurt, the only ones I posted were those I thought hadsomething to hang a hat on (three shots near enough to be hopeful).And yes, those squares are one inch.I think both you and Don may have somethingthere with concentration and maybe jumping the trigger.The 40-65 with a 10.3lb rifle are a bitdifferent than my 38-50 so could be…Iknow last time I shot my 45-70 with smokeless and a lighter bullet before Ileft and it was like a 38 compared to the 40-65 and BP.I’ll try the patch after blowing next timeand have a feel from that.I had anexcellent lube star on both muzzles when I quit.Did pick up some minor leading when I rantight patches once home.Nothing bad.

Wayne, I’ll pick up a punch at Harbor Freight.

Steve, no wind to speak of - rare for Oklahoma. The ones I think you are looking at with the close vertical made me think of my hold and struggling with the aperture and my eyes. The thing I didn't like was the outliers. The Creedmoor gave me two or those to suspect myself on.


Thanks for the input guys.I’d like to have all three of these moulds but will start with two.I have plenty of Money bullets and enough ofthe Saeco and Creedmoor for another quick trip to the range in the meantime.

On the LDPE wads, do you order them sized them morecarefully to the exact diameter since I assume they have less give than aWalters Wad?

[Stevewhr]

The Cody gun shot well with the 64 grains I believe it was and one flier. My suspicion would be shooter error somewhere somehow. You put 4 shots into well under and inch vertically and then the flier. Maybe try for 10 shots for a group. I'd bet that load is a shooter and as such I'd try that again, and hopefully it'd work for you. As a "quality control" I'd have Bill shoot that load and gun and see what happens. You've mentioned recoil, there's always a chance you have got yourself a flinch. Or, consider giving up on the Cody gun and either send it or drop it off with me. I'll give it a good home. It's just too pretty not to shoot! I'd like to watch you shoot, watch what happens after the shot. You're sitting and on sticks or are you shooting off a bench with these targets?

[Gunlaker]

You've got lots of good advice I think. One more thought, what size front aperture are you using? If the aperture is too tight on the bull it will induce eye fatigue. That aiming black is 6 minutes in size at 100. For reference, I like a 0.100" aperture on that size bull. Any smaller and my shooting suffers.

I only mention it because when I started shooting these rifles I had the front aperture closed up quite tight on the bull, and the rear set quite large. I later read a book by Jim Owens and it set me on a better path, although I don't follow exactly what he says.

Chris.

[Bent Ramrod]

You've gotten lots of good advice here. The only thing I might add is that, if you are indeed a novice at this kind of shooting, you might do better with sandbags or a bench rest for your load testing, unless, of course, you are an AAA shooter or better off cross sticks.

I might be reading too much of myself into your targets, but the nice core groups with the mysterious horizontal lineup and the occasional wide one flang out there are exasperatingly reminiscent of my own BPCR Silhouette scores.

[jlmurphy]

I couldn't tell from your initial post if you were full length resizing or slip fitting the bullets. I shoot the .40 65 and have found that the inherent taper of the case makes slip fitting the bullets difficult. I recently tested my rifle using slip fit and neck sized cases and confirmed that the neck sized rounds grouped considerably tighter than the slip fit. I performed this experiment in hopes of eliminating vertical stringing that was killing my Silhouette scores, turns out it was my scope, after repair, I shot my first Master score.

[SgtDog0311]

Steve,it was off sticks from my turkey seat – the one they ran over with the 4-wheeler at the Q – the one you repaired with bailing wireBeen doing everything the way I’d expect to do it in a match.I’m wondering about the null spot I find by tapping the barrel and feeling for the vibration to subside.That’s what I’ve been using vs experimenting with different places.Seemed to work with my other bullets/loads.So, may pay to expend some powder experimenting with different barrel resting locations too.Keep your eyes open for the Cody to arrive.Just dropped it off at the Post Office J

Chris,That aperture issue is a good one to work on I think.I’ve been using the smallest I have up front but I’ll check the size.Both the front and the rear are a question mark for me.My eyes play havoc with the rear and been trying to experiment some making that larger by moving my cheek weld further back vs further forward.I have problems making out a good ring of light outlining the front globe (not the aperture but the globe itself aroundthe aperture), as seen in the back aperture.No target based conclusions yet!My inclination is to keep it tight up front but I’ll experiment per your comments since I’m still undecided.This loss of vision thing is a challenge.Doc says I’m down to 50% vision in my right eye. Still don't think its a factor though... just insofar as trying to decide what kind of light and outline works best.

Brent, this is my first year at BPCR.They started me out in B class and I was shooting in the teens but last 22 match I shot 26.I think based on my last two scores they may classify me higher this year.Might know this Sunday.I think they issue books then.I’ve been shooting sticks for afew years but not in BPCR, just for fun long-range gong events.Steve thought he bested me last time at his place but of course he is wrong

Jl, Neck tension was another big question for me.I don’t full length resize but I have Meachum bushings I can alter just the neck tension with. My necks are turned for uniform thickness the full length of the neck.I have a .410 sizer on order with BACo now.For most of these loads just shot I was just stepping up the case mouth with a slightly undersized expander… not a flare, just a step-up with the expander.Most would seat by hand but a few needed the press to help finish the seating.If I used a bushing to snug up the neck, then expanded with the .410, I’d be uniform and ever-so-slightly tighter than this last time around.
I also have a .4075 expander if I wanted to try .0025 necktension.I have enough Money bullets to try that but it was a little much for my liking.Using a .411 expander left the round needing a little more thumb pressure to seat than I wanted.

Be thinking about the changes for next trip and report back.Right now thinking I should select the best target for each of the three bullets and just see if the results repeat themselves after making some aperture changes and checking the fouling per Brent’s recommendation. And I'll go back to the bench.Then try it again withLDPE wads.If John sells those I can ask him the size question when I drop by his house.

[Don McDowell]

On your stool, might want to try something like one of those little step stools that will give you solid seating, if you can't get by sitting on the ground. You want to be sitting in a position so you can rest both elbows on your knee's , and not be tilted to far forward or back.
Your sticks need to be set to a proper height where when you get into the gun the sights are on target without having to slide the butt up or down on your shoulder. It needs to point naturally.
Try resting your barrel either about 4 inches back from the muzzle or directly in front of the forearm.

[SgtDog0311]

Thought I'd update this since I was painfully mining new data (very poor reception here at the cabin on my one and only link to the outside world) on Swiss and this caliber. Five or six days just isn't enough for 'Ol Slowpoke' so back to OE for the Q.

I reckon this six inch plate is my best at 100yds, which establishes I still have work to do on the shooter. Second one is at 150yds so you can still see I have work to do stabilizing my sight picture. Which took me back to Chris' observation about front aperture size and makes me wonder about the rear aperture as well. Chris, if you see this I'd like to know your thoughts there. Need to get a Hadley it would appear as well as try a larger front aperture.

Also curious what you experienced fellas think about the transonic business when doing load development? Appears from this chart that I'd be traversing that barrier between 100yds and 150yds, leading one to think either 100 or 200 would be best.

Any thoughts there?

Thanks, and sorry about the orientation.