Good stuff. Hope the OP's getting something out of this, I know I am.
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Good stuff. Hope the OP's getting something out of this, I know I am.
I've been reading this for a while & have had .454s since about 82. Got several from 5" to 10" from FA & talked to Dick & his son, numerous times, about everything from loading, shooting & their production etc.
The one thing on loading/shooting their guns they said, is to use their 260gr for everything but dangerous game & 300s for dangerous. For either, put all the H110 in the case you can & still crimp the bullet so it would not jump.
They said you can't put enough in it to even begin to hurt the gun & the Cassul was designed to be shot hot. They "only" recommended H110 (not counting Unique type loads for wussy loads).
I bought, & still have a few, many of their jacketed flat points in 260 & 300 & brass (small rifle primer - they said SRmags) & have been shooting cast at 16+BHN for yrs w/GC with no problem.
That is in Freedom Arms guns!!!
I have done close to that in Rugers without breaking anything. Havn't ever tried to push it in Taurus RBs.
BTW, they said they could push 1900 w/300 & over 2k w/260s. I havn't crony mine in yrs so don't know what I got, but out of the 10" it was about those figures if I remember correctly.
I have tried the other powders & for full power loads, can't find anything better than H110. Lighter loads, several powders work good.
I have also tried about every kind & weight of bullet that works in a .454, & still go with the 260 & 300s Dick recommended. (+/- a little on various cast) as they just seem to be "right".
If you want to shoot light, you can always shoot LC in the gun.
only thing ill argue is in big cases like the 454 475 500s ect you need BOTH good case tension and a good roll crimp to not only prevent bullet jump but to insure good ignition. My chronograph has proved that many times. You don't want an overly heavy crimp because most of those guns are chambered so tight that if you crimp to hard they wont chamber. But a good firm roll crimp doesn't hurt a thing on any revolver round and in the case of big cases or slow burning ball powders its going to help.Originally Posted by Whiterabbit
You have tons of room to download. Here's the best picture I have ever seen to illustrate this:
Two different cases, but with identical powder charges and primers, are identical. This is shooting a 357 max using a 357 mag case. What you are talking about is doing the exact opposite. shooting either a 45 colt Ruger only, or a slightly-hotter-than-45-colt-ruger-only using a 454 case.
The thing you need to wrap your brain around is that you don't seat the bullet to the crimp groove. It's H110, the rule is simple: Seat the bullet down onto the powder for 100% case fill or even a teeny smidge of compression, and you'll get your good ignition. It never hurts to take out insurance in the form of a magnum primer either. But at 100% case fill, you are fine.
There is the illusion that an excessive roll crimp into a crimp groove or grease groove is required to prevent crimp jumping, but nothing could be further from the truth. If you have lots of driving band, a hard bullet, a gas check, and a good expander (RCBS, Lyman M, etc) you have all you need in the form of case tension, and can just taper crimp enough to remove the belling and an 8th turn more.
It only makes no sense if you have to seat SO deep the case mouth is over the bullet ogive or something absurd in the geometry. Your common sense will guide you strongly here. You have wiggle room in the tenths of inches, not in inches. Your warning bells are simple: case mouth over the ogive, powder charge that does not follow linear extrapolation from lots and lots of data you pull from every possible source and model, compare to 45 colt or 460 data, it should "make sense".
Finally if you clearly end up in 45 colt ruger only territory, it's also nonsense. Just shoot a blackhawk.
I'm not saying you can download willy-nilly. But take a look at that drawing above. seriously. Grab some graph paper and draw up the exact same thing with hodgdon load data and measurements you take in your reloading room of what a 45 colt ruger-only load looks like in terms of powder capacity and how much air is in the case after seating, and do the same for hodgdon load data for 454. You'll see exactly where your wiggle room is right there on the page, and let airspace and bullet fit (in the case) be your guide.
If you aren't comfy with that, then listen to everyone else here to the T. Never download H110 below your 3% hodgdon says, use a mag primer, only follow book loads, and the moment you have an ignition issue: harden up your lead, increase your crimp, polish the expander ball a little, use a more powerful primer, and you'll improve reliability. And if you want to download, use 2400.
Again its design thing. The thing that sold FA guns when they first came out was velocity and lots of it. Fast light bullets made big numbers. They are even twisted with that thought in mind which is another reason they don't do well at reduced levels. . Bottom line is if you think that jacketed 265s at 1700fps are better big game loads then 300-350 cast at 1400 fps ive got a bridge for you. Kind of like when Roy weatherby came out with the 257wby and went hunting all forms of animals with 87s and 100s. even he said at the end of it that hes lucky he didn't get killed!
I wont sit here and say that a jacketed 265 at warp speed wont kill a deer. About anything will kill a deer but ill be @@@@@ if id go after a grizzly or even moose or elk with a 454 loaded with 265s. Your going to get poor penetration and ALOT of blood shot meat. This is a cast bullet fourm and id bet most here shoot cast not jacketed in there 454s. That said going over 1300-1400 fps can actually hurt bullet performace. Most alloys just don't hold up well to hitting big bone. Deform a bullet and they will not penetrate straight and the BIGGEST advantage to cast bullets is penetration. They might not make a violent wound channel but there longer straight wound channel makes up for it. They will break big bone where a jacketed wont, especially one at warp speed. So if I can push a 300-350 grain lfn to 1400 fps what would be the advantage to pushing a 260 cast slug to the same speed.
Please don't say it shoots flatter. A 300 at 1400 shoots plenty flat enough for 100 yard work and unless your some kind of trick shooter nobody has business shooting live game with a revolver much father then that anyway. If your one of the idiots that blazes away at 200 yards at deer with your revolver then set your zero to the range your going to shoot or do like you should be doing and learn your gun and load and what hold over you need at various ranges. Bottom line is with ANY handgun youd better be a real good judge of EXACT ranges out past a 100 yards. Nope I really don't care what FA says to load. there trying to sell guns and ammo. Don't get me wrong I have a lot of respect for bob baker. Hes a good friend of one of my friends. But IMO your doing yourself a disservice loading any bullet lighter then a 300 be it jacketed or cast.
You don't have to listen to me. but like 44 man my opinions come from actually killing things not some recommendation I'm passing on from someone else or something I gleamed off the internet. Yes I will listen to other opinions from people I respect (like bob baker) but I pay a lot more attention to that animal laying dead in front of me. Ive killed things with the 454. Not as many things as I have with the 475 or 500 linebaughs and surely not as many as I have with the 44 or 45s. theres no magic to the 454 its just a hot 45 colt that buys you maybe 200 fps more with the same bullet weight and that my friend doesn't buy you much. I'm not taking my 257 out to kill big game with 87 grain bullets at 4000 fps and I'm not taking my 454 out with a jackteted 265 at warp speed either. Why would I? Kind of like taking a corvette to a mud bog race.
Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 02-15-2017 at 08:39 AM.
That's pretty interesting, that you had a chance to talk with him about his design. Thanks for your input.I've been reading this for a while & have had .454s since about 82. Got several from 5" to 10" from FA & talked to Dick & his son, numerous times, about everything from loading, shooting & their production etc.
For myself, I shoot open sights. I can imagine a shot at a deer out to about 75 yards with a Super Blackhawk 7 1/2", no more. Anything further I want the gun against my shoulder.
Last edited by Boolseye; 02-15-2017 at 09:25 AM.
As Ronald Regan once said, "there you go again".
Did I say ANYTHING about any of the items you were using to refute in post?
NO, & there is nothing to refute.
I did not say anything about hunting or any of your other posts.
I was addressing using H110 & how to use it, it merely posted what Cassul's had told me & what I had found that worked for me.
Again, you need to actually "read" what was posted, so you can at least respond to those particular statements.
I said they said use the 300 for dangerous, or big like moose. I didn't specifically state that but figured it would be understood.
Just "where" did I say it was "better" than what you or anyone else said???
Also, have you ever tried any of their 260 or 300s? They expand great & I have confidence they would have killed just fine. DID I SAY anything about those bullets or any others utility or performance?
I stated what "they" said about using H110 & mag primers, & the speed they had achieved & that I had come close to it in the 10".
DID I say it was better, best or the hammer of God? NO!
Did I not say that I also use cast? Actually, that is what I use 95% of the time, & that I have tried most weights & found that, "for me" the 260-300s are what I prefer.
You have never heard me say anything about what kills good in a pistol - have you?!
I'm a rifle hunter & will match my experience with anyone on their performance for N. American game.
Handguns are only backup for me while hunting or fishing or for personnel defense. Again, on PD, I'll match my experience on how they work. BUT that is not what we were talking about or what I had posted.
You know, I was going to quote your post about the bullets being seated to the powder & say it was right on, but didn't because I figured you would find something to bitchhh about.
So, you did anyway.
Of course, it was meaningless, as per usual, it had nothing to do with my post.
Grow up
QUOTE
Again its design thing. The thing that sold FA guns when they first came out was velocity and lots of it. Fast light bullets made big numbers. They are even twisted with that thought in mind which is another reason they don't do well at reduced levels. . Bottom line is if you think that jacketed 265s at 1700fps are better big game loads then 300-350 cast at 1400 fps ive got a bridge for you. Kind of like when Roy weatherby came out with the 257wby and went hunting all forms of animals with 87s and 100s. even he said at the end of it that hes lucky he didn't get killed!
I wont sit here and say that a jacketed 265 at warp speed wont kill a deer. About anything will kill a deer but ill be @@@@@ if id go after a grizzly or even moose or elk with a 454 loaded with 265s. Your going to get poor penetration and ALOT of blood shot meat. This is a cast bullet fourm and id bet most here shoot cast not jacketed in there 454s. That said going over 1300-1400 fps can actually hurt bullet performace. Most alloys just don't hold up well to hitting big bone. Deform a bullet and they will not penetrate straight and the BIGGEST advantage to cast bullets is penetration. They might not make a violent wound channel but there longer straight wound channel makes up for it. They will break big bone where a jacketed wont, especially one at warp speed. So if I can push a 300-350 grain lfn to 1400 fps what would be the advantage to pushing a 260 cast slug to the same speed.
Please don't say it shoots flatter. A 300 at 1400 shoots plenty flat enough for 100 yard work and unless your some kind of trick shooter nobody has business shooting live game with a revolver much father then that anyway. If your one of the idiots that blazes away at 200 yards at deer with your revolver then set your zero to the range your going to shoot or do like you should be doing and learn your gun and load and what hold over you need at various ranges. Bottom line is with ANY handgun youd better be a real good judge of EXACT ranges out past a 100 yards. Nope I really don't care what FA says to load. there trying to sell guns and ammo. Don't get me wrong I have a lot of respect for bob baker. Hes a good friend of one of my friends. But IMO your doing yourself a disservice loading any bullet lighter then a 300 be it jacketed or cast.
You don't have to listen to me. but like 44 man my opinions come from actually killing things not some recommendation I'm passing on from someone else or something I gleamed off the internet. Yes I will listen to other opinions from people I respect (like bob baker) but I pay a lot more attention to that animal laying dead in front of me. Ive killed things with the 454. Not as many things as I have with the 475 or 500 linebaughs and surely not as many as I have with the 44 or 45s. theres no magic to the 454 its just a hot 45 colt that buys you maybe 200 fps more with the same bullet weight and that my friend doesn't buy you much. I'm not taking my 257 out to kill big game with 87 grain bullets at 4000 fps and I'm not taking my 454 out with a jackteted 265 at warp speed either. Why would I? Kind of like taking a corvette to a mud bog race. QUOTE
Originally Posted by tygar
I've been reading this for a while & have had .454s since about 82. Got several from 5" to 10" from FA & talked to Dick & his son, numerous times, about everything from loading, shooting & their production etc.
The one thing on loading/shooting their guns they said, is to use their 260gr for everything but dangerous game & 300s for dangerous. For either, put all the H110 in the case you can & still crimp the bullet so it would not jump.
They said you can't put enough in it to even begin to hurt the gun & the Cassul was designed to be shot hot. They "only" recommended H110 (not counting Unique type loads for wussy loads).
I bought, & still have a few, many of their jacketed flat points in 260 & 300 & brass (small rifle primer - they said SRmags) & have been shooting cast at 16+BHN for yrs w/GC with no problem.
That is in Freedom Arms guns!!!
I have done close to that in Rugers without breaking anything. Havn't ever tried to push it in Taurus RBs.
BTW, they said they could push 1900 w/300 & over 2k w/260s. I havn't crony mine in yrs so don't know what I got, but out of the 10" it was about those figures if I remember correctly.
I have tried the other powders & for full power loads, can't find anything better than H110. Lighter loads, several powders work good.
I have also tried about every kind & weight of bullet that works in a .454, & still go with the 260 & 300s Dick recommended. (+/- a little on various cast) as they just seem to be "right".
If you want to shoot light, you can always shoot LC in the gun.
I might use the lightest crimp of anyone on the big guns, just fold to the bottom of the crimp groove and that is not much with Lee boolits. I have run a round through 3 cylinders full without movement because of case tension.
The boolit opens the crimp as it moves so I don't want it so tight it ruins a boolit. I found many cases on the line with crimps still on them.
When I had to buy boolits from cast Precision they told me a 335 gr was a good start with the .454 and top end with a .45 Colt. The .45 always worked like a hammer on deer at around 1160 fps. The .44 mag with a heavy at 1316 has never failed me. Any larger I have is a problem with just a hole so more consideration has to be given boolit construction.
Unlike many, I shoot a harder boolit that fits. I had the wrong impression myself, thinking faster was better with the same boolits. "All you need is a flat nose." Bigger the better too, Boy did that prove false. A WLN or a Keith can kill faster then a WFN.
It depends on boolit construction, weight and velocity. A very heavy boolit can poke a hole too easy so it needs some upset to slow it. One famous hunter long ago termed it "dwell time."
Need a harder boolit the faster it is shot so if anyone thinks 1800 fps or more will work better, you might be wrong, the same boolit at 1100 to 1300 is a lot better. At some point you have a sharp stick, like a field point through a deer. They put blades on arrows for a reason and I have seen the tiny things they sell now fail. Can't tune a bow with the velocity and light arrows when 180 fps with a heavy arrow still works. It is the one sight pin for all ranges now, must shoot flat.
How much different an arrow? Not much, cast is an arrow too.
I can hit steel at 500 meters with my revolvers but to hunt over 100 yards is insane since energy is gone and you need energy in the right place. The purpose of big magnum rifles is distance that most hunters can't make use of anyway unless you know the gun inside out. I grew up before range finders but knew every field to every chuck hole. I knew my rifles.
Too many here use mags, 7mm to 300's and shoot 30 yards to make burger squeezed from a sponge. They kill less then a guy with a 30-30. Tracked one a mile for a neighbor with a hole you could stick your head in. No blood trail.
looks to me like its you that's taking this personal and need to grow up. Neither of us designed the round or the gun and any weaknesses in the platform are neither of our faults. I'm just passing on info to help someone buying or loading one with some real world experinces shooting them for 30 years and killing animals not targets. If you don't agree then don't do it that way. But in no way was I making ANY kind of a personal attack against you personaly. If you cant handle someone not agreeing with your opinion a fourm like this with MANY experienced shooters with slightly different opinion is a place you should maybe stay away from. Personaly I like it when others have opinions different then mine because ive learned from them. My opinions are based on MY experiences. I'm not looking for any cheerleaders or any pats on the back for my opinion and maybe you should take it with the same attitude and lighten up. Or at least put me on your ignore list if what I posts bothers you. You wont be the first and sure wont be the last .As Ronald Regan once said, "there you go again".
Did I say ANYTHING about any of the items you were using to refute in post?
NO, & there is nothing to refute.
I did not say anything about hunting or any of your other posts.
I was addressing using H110 & how to use it, it merely posted what Cassul's had told me & what I had found that worked for me.
Again, you need to actually "read" what was posted, so you can at least respond to those particular statements.
I said they said use the 300 for dangerous, or big like moose. I didn't specifically state that but figured it would be understood.
Just "where" did I say it was "better" than what you or anyone else said???
Also, have you ever tried any of their 260 or 300s? They expand great & I have confidence they would have killed just fine. DID I SAY anything about those bullets or any others utility or performance?
I stated what "they" said about using H110 & mag primers, & the speed they had achieved & that I had come close to it in the 10".
DID I say it was better, best or the hammer of God? NO!
Did I not say that I also use cast? Actually, that is what I use 95% of the time, & that I have tried most weights & found that, "for me" the 260-300s are what I prefer.
You have never heard me say anything about what kills good in a pistol - have you?!
I'm a rifle hunter & will match my experience with anyone on their performance for N. American game.
Handguns are only backup for me while hunting or fishing or for personnel defense. Again, on PD, I'll match my experience on how they work. BUT that is not what we were talking about or what I had posted.
You know, I was going to quote your post about the bullets being seated to the powder & say it was right on, but didn't because I figured you would find something to bitchhh about.
So, you did anyway.
Of course, it was meaningless, as per usual, it had nothing to do with my post.
Grow up
QUOTE
Again its design thing. The thing that sold FA guns when they first came out was velocity and lots of it. Fast light bullets made big numbers. They are even twisted with that thought in mind which is another reason they don't do well at reduced levels. . Bottom line is if you think that jacketed 265s at 1700fps are better big game loads then 300-350 cast at 1400 fps ive got a bridge for you. Kind of like when Roy weatherby came out with the 257wby and went hunting all forms of animals with 87s and 100s. even he said at the end of it that hes lucky he didn't get killed!
I wont sit here and say that a jacketed 265 at warp speed wont kill a deer. About anything will kill a deer but ill be @@@@@ if id go after a grizzly or even moose or elk with a 454 loaded with 265s. Your going to get poor penetration and ALOT of blood shot meat. This is a cast bullet fourm and id bet most here shoot cast not jacketed in there 454s. That said going over 1300-1400 fps can actually hurt bullet performace. Most alloys just don't hold up well to hitting big bone. Deform a bullet and they will not penetrate straight and the BIGGEST advantage to cast bullets is penetration. They might not make a violent wound channel but there longer straight wound channel makes up for it. They will break big bone where a jacketed wont, especially one at warp speed. So if I can push a 300-350 grain lfn to 1400 fps what would be the advantage to pushing a 260 cast slug to the same speed.
Please don't say it shoots flatter. A 300 at 1400 shoots plenty flat enough for 100 yard work and unless your some kind of trick shooter nobody has business shooting live game with a revolver much father then that anyway. If your one of the idiots that blazes away at 200 yards at deer with your revolver then set your zero to the range your going to shoot or do like you should be doing and learn your gun and load and what hold over you need at various ranges. Bottom line is with ANY handgun youd better be a real good judge of EXACT ranges out past a 100 yards. Nope I really don't care what FA says to load. there trying to sell guns and ammo. Don't get me wrong I have a lot of respect for bob baker. Hes a good friend of one of my friends. But IMO your doing yourself a disservice loading any bullet lighter then a 300 be it jacketed or cast.
You don't have to listen to me. but like 44 man my opinions come from actually killing things not some recommendation I'm passing on from someone else or something I gleamed off the internet. Yes I will listen to other opinions from people I respect (like bob baker) but I pay a lot more attention to that animal laying dead in front of me. Ive killed things with the 454. Not as many things as I have with the 475 or 500 linebaughs and surely not as many as I have with the 44 or 45s. theres no magic to the 454 its just a hot 45 colt that buys you maybe 200 fps more with the same bullet weight and that my friend doesn't buy you much. I'm not taking my 257 out to kill big game with 87 grain bullets at 4000 fps and I'm not taking my 454 out with a jackteted 265 at warp speed either. Why would I? Kind of like taking a corvette to a mud bog race. QUOTE
I've been reading this for a while & have had .454s since about 82. Got several from 5" to 10" from FA & talked to Dick & his son, numerous times, about everything from loading, shooting & their production etc.
The one thing on loading/shooting their guns they said, is to use their 260gr for everything but dangerous game & 300s for dangerous. For either, put all the H110 in the case you can & still crimp the bullet so it would not jump.
They said you can't put enough in it to even begin to hurt the gun & the Cassul was designed to be shot hot. They "only" recommended H110 (not counting Unique type loads for wussy loads).
I bought, & still have a few, many of their jacketed flat points in 260 & 300 & brass (small rifle primer - they said SRmags) & have been shooting cast at 16+BHN for yrs w/GC with no problem.
That is in Freedom Arms guns!!!
I have done close to that in Rugers without breaking anything. Havn't ever tried to push it in Taurus RBs.
BTW, they said they could push 1900 w/300 & over 2k w/260s. I havn't crony mine in yrs so don't know what I got, but out of the 10" it was about those figures if I remember correctly.
I have tried the other powders & for full power loads, can't find anything better than H110. Lighter loads, several powders work good.
I have also tried about every kind & weight of bullet that works in a .454, & still go with the 260 & 300s Dick recommended. (+/- a little on various cast) as they just seem to be "right".
If you want to shoot light, you can always shoot LC in the gun.
Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 02-15-2017 at 01:40 PM.
nothing but truth in that one. Another poster that post his own experiences. We don't allways agree with in some of the minor stuff but basically he has found out the same things I have.
BS! You quoted me, then proceeded to use your usual know it all rantings to infer I was saying those things. I don't quote you, so don't quote me. I don't want to even see your BS any more. Be very smart & leave it be.
Keep it civil
"The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion."
- Albert Camus -
Now I'm wondering about my 460 rifle ........
In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.
I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992 .
Richard Lee Hart 6/29/39-7/25/18
Without trial we cannot learn and grow . It is through our stuggles that we become stronger .
Brother I'm going to be Pythagerus , DiVinci , and Atlas all rolled into one soon .
Nothing I posted was incorrect. Hardly a know it all as its all common knowledge. Sorry your feelings got hurt. It wasn't my intention. Like I said just use the ignore button and your problem is fixed.
I think a 460 rifle is a cool project. Basically a 4570 that shoots 452 bullets. Loaded with a good 350-400 grain bullet at 1400fps or so it would kill anything and not knock the heck out of your shoulder either. Or 450 bushmaster power in a rifle that doesn't have a gas system to foul with cast bullets. .
425 grain ranchdog GC with 32 grains of IMR4198 for 1430 fps and whatever magnum primer you like. As long as the barrel as a 16 inch twist. Just sayin'.
Or a 500 grain bullet (LEE and RCBS both make a great BPCR mold) and 31 grains of IMR4198 for 1370 fps. PB OK, even preferred.
H works too, and you can use H110 too if you want. The rifle lets you use however much H110 you want up to 65ksi. Just have to (broken record) seat onto the powder.
Kinda off topic for a 454 thread, but thought I'd mention...
(recoil is a sweetheart with IMR4198, too)
((if I am not mistaken you can buy a Ruger #1 in 460...))
I agree. I have been down that road but learned respect no matter what. I have argued about a process many times, never personal but it still hurt some. Now I just express an opinion nobody has to follow.
Maybe my favorite saying is TEST and see.
Lloyd has always told truth. I have around 563 deer kills and Lloyd might have more, much more. I was involved in farm and orchard control and found what works and fails.
I have lost deer from following things I should have ignored. Even just sport hunting I have been wrong and hate to admit being stupid but it is life as we know it.
Nothing you ever do will teach you anything until you fail. I have failed and it never goes away.
Not a problem, it works. Just don't get explosive with bullets or too hard. I went to two part boolits. Even then I did not use pure lead for the nose but a mix of WW with pure. Still ruined a deer.
Civility is what separates this forum from many of the others out there, that and a lot of knowledgeable people. I think it has a lot to do with the nature of our craft.
I think it is because we are friends most of all. Been in situations where I was cussed in PM's but talking or calling on the phone has showed a good man. Another friend.
In all the sites I have 3 that hate me total. Can't take truth. It still hurts they will not forgive but it is what it is. I apologize and am too old to have an enemy.
I hate to see any of you get out of sorts. What gain?
Tygar, if you met Lloyd or me you might find we will do anything on earth for you. So will anyone here so you must get humble. You show bad to all others.
I want to see a man that says he is sorry.
I will never, ever go to the complaint forum because you might have ate too much garlic or the wife beat you.
People are sensitive and miscommunication can easily happen. If I were to be a mediator, I would suggest for everybody to drop their hackles and take a deep breath, try to remember why we're all here. Seek more to listen than to be heard.
Last edited by Boolseye; 02-16-2017 at 12:37 PM.
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