454 casull advice.

[Whiterabbit]

The fact that a long sequence of cartridges can be fired without a single misfire so long as they are not subjected to recoil (that is, single loaded), indicates that recoil plays the majority role in the phenomenon.

And why not? If you have bullets jumping crimp, you can be inadvertently adding airspace to the case. That is solved by proper case prep and bullet alloy and fit.

I have experienced the same with AA#9, and only using soft alloys exactly what lloyd says not to do in post #35. Use a hard alloy, lots of driving band (IMO this is a requirement), or add a gas check and the problem goes away. That lends further credence to the idea it's recoil based, specifically jumping crimp.

Fix that, and maybe primer choice will become the primer mover.

I guess most people would fix that by crimping the heck out of the round, but I don't like that solution when we have antimony, gas checks, M-dies, and great bullet designs in 45 cal at our disposal.

[Whiterabbit]

well, I have no idea then how they could be related. Not doubting the experience at all. Just no idea why it could happen.

[Lloyd Smale]

I cant see it either. I know in fa guns most bullets that jumped .1 would tie the gun up. Most bullets ride right the end of the cylinder as is. Ive done a lot of experimenting with 110/296 and aa9/wc820. Ive done it in about all the big bore rounds from the 357 to the 500 linebaugh. Whats consistant (or should I say inconsistent) is if you are starting with the starting loads in most manuals using these powders your going to get inconsistent velocitys. Ive seen swings as great a 300 fps doing it. Some insist on using standard primers. that compounds the problem greatly. Start with top end loads and most of the problem goes away. Why? because you have more pressure. In some cases in 45 colt and smaller cases you can even get away with a standard primer. But over my chornograph anyway ive found hands down the best large pistol primer for these powders is a good old cci 350. Now ill swing back to the troublesome 454. Ive ran thousands of them over chronographs too. Ive used about every small rifle primer and small pistol mag primer made with these 4 powder.

What works. For a standard small rifle primer I prefer the ww hands down. It has worked best in about all my loads. But I will allways try a cci small rifle mag and have had good luck with that primer too. I love fed primers but not in the 454 unless your talking the small rifle mag (its about the equivalent of the ww small rifle stad) and you couldn't make me load 454 with any rem primer. You want good consistant 454 rounds and the ability to even download a bit? 44man taught me something on here. Get yourself some smith 460 brass (usually easier to find and as cheap as 454 brass) take it and cut it down to 454 length and you have 454 brass that has a large primer pocket just as it should have been designed. Load it with some good old cci 350s and you can kiss goodby a lot of the idiosyncrasy's of the 454.

As to the recoil causing squibs or misfires. Like I said ive shot thousands over the chronograph and have seen just as many low readings on the first round as I have on the 5th. Now my redhawks had enough room to jump crimp a bit and I guess it could happen with one of them. But if you have good bullet tension and a good firm crimp your not going to have bullets jump unless you shoot once pull that case out and load a fresh one and leave the others in for 40 or 50 shots. Ive shot 500 linebaugh maximuns loaded to the tilt that had absolutely no crimp jumping. The 454 is a 38special compared to that gun.

[Boolseye]

Thanks for your experience, Lloyd.

[z28z34man]

I have another thread in boolit swapping but dose anyone happen to have 50 or so each of there favorite boolits sized and checked that I can purchase off them to try before I buy a mold.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...lits-for-a-454

[44man]

Case tension is the key and I never have boolit movement from recoil with the minimum crimp needed. It is not the unfired round, it is the one under the hammer. The SR mag can make a lot of pressure but runs out of fire. Once it pushes powder and the boolit ahead, there is no fire left. The match goes out. Airspace is at the rear, not the front. Recoil can affect it too. Yet not the real reason. It comes down to fire and how much primer compound. We had LP standards, Fed 150 and CCI 300 ignite the .454 but the mags are more accurate. 155 or 350's. It is sustained fire. I see it every night starting the wood stove. We use the fire starters and Carol buys stupid butane lighters. It takes 4 times longer to light the starters then a long wood match. They run out of butane before the fire starts.
Push the pressure front out but lose the flame front and powder will not light. Put a pile of 296 on a chunk of cardboard and hold a match to it. Takes some time to heat to ignition when BP will go right now. Coating on powder. Needed to control burn rates.
Lil'gun has less so it goes quick to over heat a gun.
You need to control burn from one spec of powder to the next. Pressure can aid burn but is not the total answer. Slow powders add velocity as pressure drops in the bore. It keeps burning. Boost to the boolit.

[44man]

Worst thing ever heard is powder is gone in an inch no matter what powder. False as you can get. A longer barrel is always faster with slow powders. A powder column starts at the rear and burns to the front. Powder will be out in the bore to burn. It will sustain pressure.
A nut case is a .500 S&W in a 2" barrel. Or a Ruger Alaskan. stupid, stupid. Powder burns in the air. So you look for unique loads, what is the caliber made for?
Plus the boolit still spins right with the lost velocity. Dumbest thing ever is a twist will spin the same from 2" as it does from 6". Sure if velocity is the same. can you do it?
a .50 440 gr needs 64,800 rpm's for stability. 1350 fps. Drop to 1000 and get 48,000. That is a 1 in 15" twist. Slow the twist to to 1 in 20' and a boolit at 1350 fps is only 48,600 rpm's. At 1000 fps it is 36,000. 10 yard gun.
I don't make this stuff up. Lloyd has a handle on it.

[Boolseye]

My dad (me and the OP have similar situations) says he's gonna stick with Lil' Gun for his 300 and 350 grain slugs in the Casull. I passed along all this info, though, he appreciates it. You guys go deep on this stuff, it's interesting.

44man, y'ever use a little propane torch to start the fire? Works good in a pinch.

[Lloyd Smale]

the last powder id use in a 454 is lilgun. FA wont even warrantee one that has forcing cone erosion that has been shot with lilgun.

[Boolseye]

Yeah? Good to know, I'll pass that along. It's become his favorite .45 Colt hot load powder. What powder do you recommend? Does that apply for rifles?

[44man]

Yeah? Good to know, I'll pass that along. It's become his favorite .45 Colt hot load powder. What powder do you recommend? Does that apply for rifles?

True, burns HOT. 12 moderately spaced shots in a Freedom and I could start the wood stove with the barrel. I suppose the same in a rifle. The powder was made for the .410 shotgun.
Go to 296.

[leftiye]

Go to 1680.

[Lloyd Smale]

if I could only have one powder for the 454 it would hands down be 110/296. Second choice would be aa9. If I wanted a powder to down loads some but still could give me some pretty decent higher velocity's it would be 2400.

[Boolseye]

Do those ignition problems happen with 300-350 grain slugs and max loads of H110/296? I mean with a standard 454 case, not a cut-down 460. Is there any room for downloading with these combos? 5-10%? Thanks in advance.

[44man]

Do those ignition problems happen with 300-350 grain slugs and max loads of H110/296? I mean with a standard 454 case, not a cut-down 460. Is there any room for downloading with these combos? 5-10%? Thanks in advance.

NO, max loads work 100%. Do not download. If I remember 1/2 gr under max with 296 worked but not lower.
If you want any reduction use a different powder.

[Boolseye]

OK, thanks.

[Lloyd Smale]

Heres my opinion. At full book levels it will work fine. Preferably use either a ww std primer or some kind of a mag rifle primer. At full book levels believe it or not your already shooting downloaded stuff. The 454 was first designed and loaded hotter then it is now. Most loads in the loading manuals are watered down from the loads we used to use. So if you really want it to work right and have good ignition in even cold weather stick with the top end loads in the manual. If you want to download buy some 2400 and do it with that.

Do those ignition problems happen with 300-350 grain slugs and max loads of H110/296? I mean with a standard 454 case, not a cut-down 460. Is there any room for downloading with these combos? 5-10%? Thanks in advance.

[Boolseye]

Thanks Lloyd

[Whiterabbit]

Do those ignition problems happen with 300-350 grain slugs and max loads of H110/296? I mean with a standard 454 case, not a cut-down 460. Is there any room for downloading with these combos? 5-10%? Thanks in advance.

You have tons of room to download. Here's the best picture I have ever seen to illustrate this:



Two different cases, but with identical powder charges and primers, are identical. This is shooting a 357 max using a 357 mag case. What you are talking about is doing the exact opposite. shooting either a 45 colt Ruger only, or a slightly-hotter-than-45-colt-ruger-only using a 454 case.

The thing you need to wrap your brain around is that you don't seat the bullet to the crimp groove. It's H110, the rule is simple: Seat the bullet down onto the powder for 100% case fill or even a teeny smidge of compression, and you'll get your good ignition. It never hurts to take out insurance in the form of a magnum primer either. But at 100% case fill, you are fine.

There is the illusion that an excessive roll crimp into a crimp groove or grease groove is required to prevent crimp jumping, but nothing could be further from the truth. If you have lots of driving band, a hard bullet, a gas check, and a good expander (RCBS, Lyman M, etc) you have all you need in the form of case tension, and can just taper crimp enough to remove the belling and an 8th turn more.

It only makes no sense if you have to seat SO deep the case mouth is over the bullet ogive or something absurd in the geometry. Your common sense will guide you strongly here. You have wiggle room in the tenths of inches, not in inches. Your warning bells are simple: case mouth over the ogive, powder charge that does not follow linear extrapolation from lots and lots of data you pull from every possible source and model, compare to 45 colt or 460 data, it should "make sense".

Finally if you clearly end up in 45 colt ruger only territory, it's also nonsense. Just shoot a blackhawk.

I'm not saying you can download willy-nilly. But take a look at that drawing above. seriously. Grab some graph paper and draw up the exact same thing with hodgdon load data and measurements you take in your reloading room of what a 45 colt ruger-only load looks like in terms of powder capacity and how much air is in the case after seating, and do the same for hodgdon load data for 454. You'll see exactly where your wiggle room is right there on the page, and let airspace and bullet fit (in the case) be your guide.

If you aren't comfy with that, then listen to everyone else here to the T. Never download H110 below your 3% hodgdon says, use a mag primer, only follow book loads, and the moment you have an ignition issue: harden up your lead, increase your crimp, polish the expander ball a little, use a more powerful primer, and you'll improve reliability. And if you want to download, use 2400.

[Whiterabbit]

The other way to safely download H110 with 100% confidence AND use a large primer:

Just go buy some 45 colt brass and load Hodgdon spec ruger-only loads. They work fine in a 454 revolver, I promise. They aren't anywhere near the pressure ceiling of the 454 loadings.