Hello everyone, new member here ;)

[elvas]

It would be interesting a mold that makes full bore "Lyman Sabot Slugs" to avoid any sabot/wad variations, accuracy speaking.

[longbow]

There's something I have not tried is the brush wads or donut wads. Certainly if you can keep the 0.690" ball centered it should fly just like any other ball. It is keeping it centered and not having wads self destruct that has been my problem with it, not the ball itself.

I bought a Lyman 0.715" ball mould for my Browning buck and slug smoothbore barrel with I/C choke some time back for that very reason... so that it would be centered up by the choke as it left the barrel but, I did not check the choke before ordering the mould and find my choke is 0.710" and balls cast at 0.716". I have been reluctant to shoot the ball through that choke. It is likely alright but I don't want to find out the hard way!

FLTLVL:

To be honest I am not sure. I have not shot the Lyman sabot slug. Nor have I done penetration tests with any slug that is basically a full wadcutter like the Lyman slug.

For bear defense I would want to test both for penetration in wet newspaper or multiple water jugs... or better, a combination. While the wadcutter nose has to make a nasty wound channel I still think I would go with whichever gave enough penetration to go lengthwise through or at least furthest through a large critter. Either one would be cast from wheelweights or harder alloy then oven heat treated for that use.

I do not believe the round ball would break up but not sure of the Lyman Sabot slug skirt. I have recovered several slugs that were oven heat treated and some hollow base slugs broke up and a finned slug design I made also broke up (shed fins). A slightly softer alloy may have solved that but still not allowed penetration limiting expansion.

There is likely someone here that has shot big game and maybe even bears with the Lyman slug that can add personal experience. Lengthwise shots would be the issue here not broadside shots... unless broadside on an elk, moose or large grizzly that is.

I'd certainly feel better armed with a 12 ga. and either round ball or Lyman Sabot slug than most smaller calibers except for those in the .45-70 class and up.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

A lot of good advice in this tread.

Based on my personal experience (don't ask!) with disintegrating wads and wads separating from the slug, a wad-less slug with a length-to-diameter ratio about 1:1 will be fairly accurate within 25 yards from a smoothbore - certainly more than accurate enough to work as bear repellent even though they would almost certainly be key-holing at this distance. After 25 yards things start to go south, and at fifty yards you might miss the bear completely due to the extreme non-linear dispersion of a tumbling slug.

[FLTLVL]

All great advice here! I guess I just need to do some penetration testing with different slugs hey lol. I'm reading the thread regarding the new MP/Lyman 525 slug mold.... Interesting stuff. An other option is casting a full bore round ball I guess for my improved cylinders... .728 to .730.... That would be some serious lead down range!

[FLTLVL]

One thing I have never done is shoot full bore round balls yet. I have no idea how to load them or where to get any kind of reloading info... My Mossberg 590A1 has a cylinder bore barrel measuring .730 if I believe my calipers... Now what diameter round ball should I cast for such barrel? Do you use like a felt wad over the powder charge or do you still use wad like a 12S3 or 12S4 in which one would cut all the petals off? How about lube? Do you have to coat them in Lee liquid alox or lubing is not required for round balls?

How about pressures?

So many questions hey.... ahhh newbies lol

By the way, I noticed a chap by the name of Jeff Tanner makes custom brass round ball moulds in the UK. They seem to be very well made. I'm curious as to how hard it would be to cut the sprew of a hard cast round ball with a pair of pliers... I could get two different moulds one in .678 and the other in .732....

FLTLV

[longbow]

For full bore round ball I went with the only mould I knew of that was available... Lyman 0.735". Even though it is oversize, there is not a lot of meat around the equator so I figured it would be okay. Got the mould, cast some balls from range scrap then took a dowel and mallet to drive on through the bore. It took very little effort to get started then slid through so that eased my mind.

The ball weighs 580 grs. so load data is a little scarce. I found a load published by Precision Rifle for their PileDriver solid full bore slug at 610 grs. They listed pressure tests for loads from 36 to 44 grs. of Blue Dot in straight walled hull. Since the ball has less bore contact and is 30 grs. lighter I felt quite comfortable using these loads so started at 36 grs. in a Fiocchi 2 3/4" hull with Win 209 primer. They went bang and accuracy was good so I figured I'd up the charge and went to 38 grs. The recoil there in a light single shot got my attention so that's the load I used. I can't recall if I tried any at 40 grs. but 38 grs. is what I stuck with and it seemed like a pretty potent load.

I tried a few different wad columns but settled on a plastic gas seal, hard card wad then a nitro card wad or two to get crimp height then roll crimp. The hard card wad column gave the best accuracy for me giving groups of 3" to 4" at 50 yards. I shot to 100 yards and got some pretty nice groups of 6" to 8" but too often there was a flier or two that were well out of the group so not dependable 100 yard accuracy.

The same load shot out of a borrowed Remington 870 with rifled barrel turned in several groups of 2"+/- at 50 yards and no leading though I didn't shoot it a lot. I didn't have any leading issues at all in my smoothbore using the full bore naked ball but if I was loading for rifled gun I would either tumble lube the balls or use a lubed felt wad in the wad column.

I also tried using a cut off cushion leg with gas seal (petals cut off) but found the cushion leg tried to wrap itself around the ball and cracked, tore, or distorted badly and often the gas seals were blown. Accuracy was poor.

Using a nitro card wad or two under a ball helps whether full bore or ball in shotcup. At 10,000 PSI the wad column needs to be sturdy as it tries to extrude itself around the ball.

So there's something you should do when you get to field testing is look for your wads and check condition. If accuracy is good the wad condition really doesn't matter but still, it is good to know what's happening. If accuracy is poor and wads are damaged then you want to change wads or change the way you are loading. I generally find that if wads look bad accuracy is not good and if accuracy is good wads are in good shape.

As for moulds, the readily available Lyman 0.735" works for me though had I known about Jeff Tanner at the time I would have ordered a 0.732" mould from him. Not sure if the size would be better, worse or same but it seems a better size. I've directed several people to Jeff's site after I found it and those that bought his moulds say they work well.

Also, you might look up a recent thread by 725 who is using a soft lead 0.720" ball in a shotcup with excellent results in rifled gun. I wouldn't have believed it but it is working well for him. I thought wad petals would shear for sure but he posted pics of recovered wads and they look great. Not sure if the results would be as good with hard cast balls though. I had petals shearing using 0.690" RB's in smoothbore. A tougher wad might help there but I have limited reloading supplies available locally so have to use what I can get. Anyway, just more information and a good thread to read as well if you haven't seen it.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

If you go for a full bore round ball, it should fit the bore snugly. Any rattling will likely put a random spin on the ball when it leaves the muzzle

[FLTLVL]

I will email M. Jeff Tanner asap. I will probably start with the smaller caliber round ball as it seems this might be easier to find loads for... So it seems Longbow swears by the .678 caliber round ball. I wish I knew which one would penetrate the deepest, the .678 rb at 1400 fps or a .732 at 1200. I plan on casting these out of wheel weights and heat treating them to increase penetration, reduce deformation.

Regarding the Jeff Tanner molds, do any of you see any problems cutting the sprue off hard allow vs pure lead?

[longbow]

Since Jeff shows a pair of side cutters as sprue cutters, I have to think at worst you would need largish side cutters for hard alloy. They will be air cooled at sprue cutting time though. Might be a question to ask Jeff.

Before you go buying moulds, if you want to try some 0.678" and 0.735" RB's I can send you a few of each. These are air cooled range scrap but similar to wheelweights and they do oven heat treat as I have oven heat treated range scrap boolits for my .303's.

I'll add that I have not shot oven heat treated 0.735" RB's in my guns, just air cooled. I doubt it will make a big difference to forces required but worth checking by running one through the bore with dowel and mallet. I'll see if I can do that this week. Won't matter at all for the 0.678" ball since it is in a shotcup.

Not sure about penetration between the two balls. There is another interesting test to do. Mass is usually a good thing for penetration which leans towards the 0.735" ball but it also depends on velocity and sectional density. The 0.735" ball has a slight edge in sectional density so likely achievable velocity will be the deciding factor. I am thinking you should be able to hit 1500 FPS or beyond with the 0.678" ball which is substantial.

Anyway, if you want some balls to test fire let me know.

Longbow

[FLTLVL]

Thank you Longbow for the offer . The Jeff Tanner molds are so cheap that I might purchase two... one in .678 and one in .732

I think that I remember a gentleman by the nickname of Turbo who was also fond of that .678 Cal round ball if my memory serves me right.

Just pulling up some reloading information from the Hodgdon reloading data center, and they show for a 1 1/8 lead shot load some pretty interesting numbers.
I think that this .678 cal round ball would fit perfectly in the Fed 12S3 wads which I have in large quantity. I also have mostly FED209A primers with Rem Gun Club hulls.

So I was thinking... Rem hull, Fed 209A, Longshot as my powder of choice, 12S3 wad, 16 gauge 1/8 nitro card at the base of the wad, the .678 hard cast ball to finish it all...

Sounds like 1500 fps should be easily attainable.

[Spudgunr]

Thank you Longbow for the offer . The Jeff Tanner molds are so cheap that I might purchase two... one in .678 and one in .732

I think that I remember a gentleman by the nickname of Turbo who was also fond of that .678 Cal round ball if my memory serves me right.

Just pulling up some reloading information from the Hodgdon reloading data center, and they show for a 1 1/8 lead shot load some pretty interesting numbers.
I think that this .678 cal round ball would fit perfectly in the Fed 12S3 wads which I have in large quantity. I also have mostly FED209A primers with Rem Gun Club hulls.

So I was thinking... Rem hull, Fed 209A, Longshot as my powder of choice, 12S3 wad, 16 gauge 1/8 nitro card at the base of the wad, the .678 hard cast ball to finish it all...

Sounds like 1500 fps should be easily attainable.

You may not get good results from that, Longshot doesn't like to be under-loaded. A .678 hard cast will be about 450 grains, 1-1/8 oz is 492 grains. That is the lightest load you can find data for with Longshot. I tried 1oz of buckshot and it went poof. Add another little bit to bring it to 1-1/8oz and BOOM it went off like it should. A round ball will give less pressure than shot, so the problem is likely to be worse. Is there a way to make it work? Maybe. A pure lead ball will weigh more and may help, but I think you are going to need a bit more pressure for Longshot to go off nicely

[longbow]

Take a look here for lots of free load data:

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/loa...eekarchive.htm

You can use same weight data for buckshot, birdshot or slugs. You may find longshot data for 1+ oz. slugs.

Almost all my slug shooting has been with Blue Dot, SR4756 or Unique and most with Blue Dot. Running out though and it does not seem to be locally available. I haven't looked lately but last time I checked no "Dot" powders were available here.

A good roll crimp may help with the Longshot but Spudgunr is right, if you do not get good powder burn you could get bloopers or unpleasant pop... BOOM's.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

Ditto on the longshot spudgunner. Great powder just gotta have plenty to push. The Rem hulls will help though, versus a straight wall.

[FLTLVL]

Thank you very much everyone for keeping me well informed. Like I initially stated in my opening post, we learn all the time and I'm very receptive to input. I will be checking the Ballistic products load data as soon as I'm done composing this.

Longbow: The Bullet Barn in Garden Bay, B.C. has both Blue dot and Unique in stock.

By reviewing the Hodgdon loading data for 1oz loads, I see that they have Titewad listed with a 12s0 wad. Being a faster powder, I wonder if this would do the trick...

Regards,

FLTLVL

[Spudgunr]

Longshot on a 1oz slug is something I want to work up when I get my pressure trace system. I suspect it is just a matter of adding more powder until you increase the pressure, but that is no man's land if you have no pressure readings to work from. The way I'd do it is slowly lower the shot charge, then increase powder to read the same pressure again. Continue lowing shot, increase powder. Again, with a pressure reading to work off (and that'd be after I've well familiarized myself with the system to understand whats going on). I think doing it this way would be better than just adding more powder on the small charge since you should avoid a ton of bloopers.

I did get 1680fps with a 1oz slug with longshot, I found a 3" load for the Lyman 525gr slug and used it with the 1oz slug. Obviously the pressure is going to be a lot less, so it makes me think significantly higher velocity is possible. To give you (general, not Hogtamer specifically since he likely knows this) an idea how much less pressure there is with solids, the 525 gr slug is over 1-1/8 (1.2) ounce and calls for FORTY FIVE grains of longshot (WAA12L wad) in the 3" remington separate basewad, for normal shot no more than 38 grains (2.75" fed gold medal hull).

Ditto on the longshot spudgunner. Great powder just gotta have plenty to push. The Rem hulls will help though, versus a straight wall.

[FLTLVL]

Well if I could get 1400 to 1500 fps with a 1oz round ball, I would be very happy. Now the tricky question... Should I order a mold in .678 or .680 caliber... What is the general consensus if any lol...

[longbow]

I don't think 0.002" will make any measurable difference to a given wad. Once up to 685"+ then things get a bit snug. It also depends a bit how deep the slug sits in the shotcup. I have some Winchester 1 oz. shotcups that have considerably thinner petals than the 1 1/4 oz. shotcups. I suspect the use the same taper but use shorter petals on the small capacity cup so similar to being way up in the 1 1/4 oz. shotcup.

I could not figure out why 0.678" when I doubt 0.002" would make a difference in a patch ball gun but someone figured it out I guess so that's what the moulds are cut to.

[725]

Just for your enjoyment type reading, go back and search the casting for shotgun thread for my "Success with 12 ga roundball" (or something close). I had Jeff Tanner cut a roundball mould at .702 and have wonderful success with it. I ran it out of a rifled barrel, but think a cylinder bore would do OK with it too. Just an FYI.

[FLTLVL]

I just put myself on the list for the group buy of a MP round ball mold in .678 caliber... A few more people are needed to get the ball rolling... pun intended

[Apocalypse]

Isn't there issues with group buys through here and being in Canada? I didn't even look, TBH. I'm in Winnipeg and am rather frustrated at the silly (to me) export laws of the US.

I just put myself on the list for the group buy of a MP round ball mold in .678 caliber... A few more people are needed to get the ball rolling... pun intended