Hello everyone, new member here ;)

[FLTLVL]

First of all, let me introduce myself. I'm FLTLVL, a chap from Canada who just joined the forum a few minutes ago. I'm a new member but not new to the site. I have read many threads on this forum for many years now but only as a viewer and not a participant.

I got hit by this bug called (bullet casting) many years ago now and I still consider myself a beginner. Not to long ago, I got hit with another virus, that is, shot shell reloading... oh yes

I'm in the process of ordering a mold from Accurate Molds but I have a few questions that are unanswered and I can't find anything relating to my situation online so I thought I would ask the experts on this forum. First of all, this is for fun, a hobby nothing more however if the accuracy is half ok, I might use this load in my 12 gauge 590A1 for bear deterrent or protection while camping in outdoors up north. I thought of this over and over and decided to eliminate the full bore option for personal reasons even though it is probably the best option. My goal is to load this slug in a Remington STS or Gun Club hull using Longshot for powder and a Federal 12S4 wad. My 590A1 has a cylinder bore barrel and I was debating on which diameter to order the slug in... I was thinking cal .678 for the bands, or another option is cal .680.

This load might also be shot on occasion in my Remington 870 rifled barrel on the occasional deer hunt if it proves accurate....

I will include a picture of the slug for reference.



Now I'm well aware that this slug will probably not be very accurate on of my smooth bore Mossberg 590, however, my main question is in regards to the diameter of the bands. I remember reading a thread regarding the .690 Cal roundball slug where a member by the name of Longbow if my memory serves me well mentioned that he had very good luck with .678 cal round balls in his smooth bores mentioning that the fit in most wads was perfect. Using the same logic, I'm wondering if getting a mold to cast these slugs with a band of .678 cal would not be a better option.

Anyways, always looking for your comments and input as I am a newbie to this and always willing to learn.

A few technical dimensions regarding this slug which is available on the Accurate Molds catalog. It is .675 inches long, and is supposed to cast with a weight of 545 grains using WW as alloy.

Thank you ago for your patience and input and forgive me for a pretty long thread, considering this is my first post lol.

Regards,

FLTLVL

[Ithaca Gunner]

You plan on putting it in a shot cup? I have an Accurate mold for 12ga slug similar, but 700+grs. Mine casts a .732" slug for a rifled barrel. I load it lubed in a ST Premier hull with just a gas seal and cork wad with a roll crimp over a charge of Blue Dot.

I think Longbow is loading round ball that fits a shot cup nicely and pushes down a standard 12ga. barrel just right.

[longbow]

I am a bit confused here... nothing new I am getting old!

You say you are using a smoothbore barrel but it looks like the slug you want to use in a shotcup is suited for rifled barrel.

So far most of my slug shooting has been in smoothbore and I have shot round ball, Foster style hollow base slugs and Brenneke style attached wad slugs.

With smoothbore barrel you need a drag stabilized slug or round ball. Round balls can deliver pretty good accuracy to 50 yards or better but there is a tendency for groups to open up fairly quickly much past 50 to 60 yards. I have shot some very nice round ball groups out to 100 yards... but not dependably. Balls tend to pick up a spin from drag, producing unpredictable fliers.

Drag stabilized slugs being either hollow base or Brenneke style attached wads use the shuttlecock principle to stay nose forward.

Certainly 0.678" round ball which is a standard Lyman and RCBS mould size fits well in many standard shotcups. Lee Drive Key Slugs run about 0.685" at the nose and taper to something like 0.670" at the base to match shotcup petal taper more or less. Lyman sabot slugs run about the same.

So, for rifled gun something in the order or 0.680" should be about right for standard shotcups but a solid slug will not stabilize from a smoothbore barrel.

If you are planning on using a smoothbore barrel then you will be better off using a round ball of 0.678"/0.680", Lee Drive Key slug or Lyman sabot slug... if you want to cast your own. There are some custom/semi-custom hollow base slug moulds available as well from Brooks. turbo1880 had a couple of very nice hollow base moulds made by Brooks. A search will find his threads. turbo posted lots of good info as did Ajay (VDO memories).

Alternately Accurate will make a hollow base mould for you but you will have to get the hollow base pin made by someone else.

So far in my quest to find 100 yard accuracy (my definition is under 6" at 100 yards from smoothbore) I have failed. Not that I haven't achieved it but not dependably with home cast and loaded slugs. To 50 yards plus however, a good round ball load is hard to beat in my experience. Easy to cast and easy to load, round balls do pretty well for moderate range work and equal or better any hollow base slugs I have shot so far.

YMMV

Longbow.

[Buckshot]

A hearty welcome for finally 'Man-ing Up' and coming in out of the cold I'm really no shotgun expert, but I'd think that for use in a smooth bore wouldn't a HB design be better? I know that possibly the roundball does yeoman's duty in such things, but is decidedly short ranged. My thinking is in a HB design you get that "Potato in a sock" effect? You've probably heard of BPI, Ballistic Products Inc? https://www.ballisticproducts.com/

A couple years ago I had the shotgun bug bite. In fact I decided to make myself a shotgun slug mould



I made it like a Lee, with a captive cavity pin. LEFT: Is a top view. Right is a photo of the base plate with the central Nyloc nut retaining the core pin.



Left is the cavity, and on the right is the slug it drops. The slug drops from the mould at .733".



This is one I drove through the barrel of my Mossberg M500's 20" rifled barrel. I didn't spend much time at the lead pot and the pictured slug was one of the better ones. I also loaded one as I just HADTA try it out. The slugs weigh 525 grs. Picked a charge for a 1-1/4 oz payload atop a wad that I'd cut the petals off of and then roll crimped the slug in place. Big time test having a whole ONE shot All I want to do was make sure the slug would exit the barrel in the right direction. I drove out into the sticks where we used to live.

Wasn't even refined enough to have a target. Very minimalist, as I tossed a small piece of 2x4 into the middle of the dirt road, and backed up about 30 yards. I had my buddy with me, and he suggested this was really going to be scientific. A hint of sarcasm I think. I was glad I brought his as when I fired I lost sight of the block of wood, but did see the dust kick up. My friend said it hit about 3" to the right and maybe 6" behind the piece of wood. So for me standing, that suggested that the slug would have 'just' cleared the side of the 2x4 I was jazzed, but that was the sum of the whole deal. Other stuff got in the way

...............Buckshot

[Hogtamer]

Welcome to the chaos!
1) Don't start out reinventing the wheel. Longbow and others will attest a Round Ball load is easiest and best accuracy to 50 yds. Either the .678 in a wadcup or .735 full bore. The Lee 7/8 key drive is in that class as well and same shotcup and powder as .678 ball. Slower powder for full bore. Among us there are tens of thousands of test firings and scores of combos to make this statement.
2) Any of above will work in smoothbore (Cylinder or Imp Cyl) or rifled gun.
3) Recoil is a consideration. Too much and it won't be enjoyable and that is subjective. Massive recoil does not equate with follow up shots if required.
4) Sighting system (rifle type, red dot or scope) is needed for decent accuracy. Single bead is at best paper plate at 50 yds.
5) There are great options already out there already proven for purchase. Uncle Dino's latest attached wad swaged slugs mentioned in thread above among the best for accuracy and ease of loading and probably much less expensive than all of the avove in the short and long run. If you are infected with the disease from which most of us are here though, you will ignore most of this, spend a thousand dollars or so on chasing your own rabbit, only to come to the same basic conclusions you have read here about big lead and shotguns! be safe and have fun.

[GhostHawk]

Welcome to the light there Lurker!

No need to hang in the shadows.

Where you from up there in the Great White North?

I'm just a bit south of Winnipeg on the wrong side of the border from you.

[FLTLVL]

First off, let me thank you for all the warm welcome . I read all your comments with great detail and I will try to clarify a few points.

Thank you Longbow for replying so quickly. I been reading many of your posts over the years so thanks again for giving your input. I am well aware that this slug will not be stable in a smoothbore. I ran calculations and it will be very stable in a 1:35 twist slug barrel. Like is said, this is mostly a fun project so it won't hurt me at all to drop 100$ on a mold and realize I made a mistake hahah. With your experience, shooting such slug in my smoothbore cylinder choke Mossberg barrel, will the slug tumble as soon as leaves the barrel. I would be happy of a 2 to 3 inch group at 15 yards out of a smoothbore as long as the slug did not keyhole. I would mostly be using this combo in my smoothbore for bears around the camp and such at very close range. Bears are not a threat at 25 yards as far as I'm concerned.
Now if I were to shoot that same slug in a rifled shotgun barrel, do any of you see any issues? As far as the diameter, most seem to think .680 would probably be the perfect fit for the rifled barrel. How about the smoothbore barrel? Would .680 be a better fit compared to lets say a .678?

Hotamer's post made me giggle deep inside and I'm still laughing at this quote (If you are infected with the disease from which most of us are here though, you will ignore most of this, spend a thousand dollars or so on chasing your own rabbit)... You are 100% correct in a sense. I would never ignore your input, never that would be disrespectful but I do like to tinker around.

GhostHawk: I lived all over Canada over the last few decades due to the nature of my work... I did live in Winnipeg for a while, its there that I had my 375 Ultra Mag build on a Winchester Mod 70 action. Now I moved to the (Belle Province) yea yea, I know....

1: So long story short. With your prior experience, would that slug design fly straight to at least 10 to 15 yards, nose forward?

Thanks again,

FLTLVL

[longbow]

I'll stick with the recommendation of round ball or Foster slug.

The Lyman sabot slug or Lee Drive Key slug would be a good place to start. Both are designed to be loaded into shotcups and both can be shot from smoothbore or rifled gun. I think the Lyman Sabot Slug is a little stouter design and a bit heavier than the Lee Drive Key slug so is likely a better choice for bears.

Both those moulds are readily available from Lyman and Lee. Also, Mihec has beautiful brass clones of the Lyman slug in full bore and wad slug so there is that option and the Mihec mould is 2 cavity which is nice.

I have not shot the Lyman sabot slug but many report good accuracy all the way to 100 yards from smoothbore and they do very well from rifled guns.

As for ease of casting and loading it is hard to beat the round ball and has been said, out to 50 yards or so they are plenty accurate for most needs. 0.678" ball moulds are available from Lyman and RCBS and the 0.735" ball mould is available from Lyman. There is also a group buy running for Mihec brass 2 cavity moulds in 0.678" and 0.732".

So distilled down to the short answer:

~ if you are set on using a wad slug and smoothbore I'd go with 0.678" round ball or the Lyman Sabot Slug... and Mihec moulds for both if you want a terrific quality brass mould
~ if for use in both smoothbore and rifled, I'd go with the Lyman Sabot Slug (Mihec mould)
~ I would not use the solid slug from Accurate for a smoothbore. It will likely stop a bear at 15 yards but I'll bet it is tumbling by 15 yards too. That one might respond to a rifled choke tube if you have a smoothbore barrel threaded for choke tubes
~ if you decide on a custom mould pay attention to slug weight and available load data. There is not a lot of load data available for slugs heavier than about 1 3/8 oz.

And yes... welcome to the forum!

Longbow

[FLTLVL]

Thank you Longbow for your input! I was just on the MP mold website and I see that they indeed have a nice mold copy of the Lyman pellet slug... How does brass compare to aluminum for casting since I have no experience with it? Would I be able to use it bellow zero weather here up in Canada since I do cast in my shed in the winter...

As far as the pellet slug is concerned, if I shoot it in my cylinder bore (.730) could I cast it out of hard alloy to maximize penetration?

Regards,

FLTLVL

[longbow]

Brass is a great mould material and Mihec moulds are top quality at good prices.

Brass does like to be run hot and fast, especially the Cramer style. Also, I ladle cast because I prefer ladle but I think for large volume pours like shotgun slugs a ladle is best. My opinion anyway.

I cast outside in winter and am in Castlegar, British Columbia (East Kootenays). We don't often see real cold but it regularly gets down to -10 to -20 C. I dip my moulds in the snow to cool them when they get too hot if I am casting real fast.

I've never had problems and have cast at temperature as low as -15 though normally I'd say -3 to -5 so not much below freezing.

As for hard alloy, I can't say from personal experience with the Lyman Sabot slug but many post that they cast from hard alloy and are successful so I'd have to say I'd do it. I will say that I have recovered several Lyman slugs others have shot at our range and all show skirt crushing (these are softish lead). I'd recommend filling the hollow cavity with hot melt glue or similar both to keep wads out and to help support the skirt. If you cast from hard alloy skirt crushing may not be an issue but wads pushing into the cavity will be so best to fill it anyway. I fill all my hollow base slugs.

For bear protection I think a hard alloy would be preferable as well. Penetration is your friend and the bear is not. Also at the ranges you are talking about if the hard alloy is tough on wads it shouldn't really matter as you are not looking for pinpoint accuracy at 15 yards.

What would be interesting to find out is penetration comparison between a 0.678" round ball and Lyman Sabot slug with both cast from hard alloy and at top velocity. The ball weighs less but can be driven faster and being spherical may penetrate further than the flat nose Lyman slug and again, I think penetration is your friend in that kind of situation. Depends on size of the bears too. If the Lyman slug will go right through it is likely to do more damage. If not I would opt for more penetration though that is just my opinion.

Maybe I will make a nose form to match the Lyman slug for my mould and do that comparison. Mine will not be wasp waisted like the Lyman but can be same weight and loaded to same velocity with same nose so should have same terminal ballistics. Yet another project to add to the list!

Pleas keep us posted on what you decide to do and your results. It is all a shared experience and knowledge here.

Longbow

[pipehand]

Welcome aboard. To be succinct, what Longbow said in posts 3 and 8 are what I would say given my experience.

[DanishM1Garand]

Lyman Foster Slugs are hopeless inaccurate. Lyman's 525 grain "Air Gun Pellet" slugs are accurate in smooth and rifled bores.

I made the the mistake of buying the foster slug mold first.

[longbow]

Me too!

I bought a Lyman Foster slug mould about 35 years ago after reading about possible 4" groups at 100 yards. Using Lyman Reloading manual recipes to the letter and casting slugs from dead soft lead as directed by Lyman I couldn't keep groups under about 8" at 50 yards with 10" to 12" being more common.

In more recent times I got some advice that I should use a copper washer under the slug to ensure even and proper obturation so dug out that old mould, cast some pure lead slugs, turned some pennies down to fit the bore for placing under the slugs and proceeded to load up. Well, those didn't work any better.

I'd not recommend the Lyman Foster slug mould at all.

The Lyman Sabot Slug "Air Gun Pellet" mould is a whole different animal and has gotten some pretty good reviews. It is a slug I have not tried as of yet though. I was going to buy a Mihec version but turbo talked me out of it as he said my home made slugs will do as well. So far while I don't know if that is true, I do know that the slugs I cast and load from my home made moulds are not giving me 4" groups at 100 yards from smoothbore... and not likely to.

Longbow

[FLTLVL]

I'm glad to know brass will work out well for casting. I'm also wondering if MP Molds would make a custom mold if I submit a design of my own. I was thinking using a wide meplat slug but keeping the same inside dimensions as the Lyman pellet slug. This way, no change would be required to the core pin by the machinist building the mold, only the mold dimensions would change slightly...

I was doing some rough sketching this afternoon just for fun... What do you think of these? I'm thinking a diameter of .678 to .680 to fit in a wad. The weight would be slightly heavier than the Lyman slug, I'm guessing around 550 grains using WW. The length would be adjusted so as to fit in a 12S4 wad without any nitro card bellow. The skirt of the bullet would have to be wide enough to prevent issues that are reported on the Lyman design with the wad pushing inside the slugs recess...




The shaded area would obviously be hollow...

[longbow]

Mihec only does group buys.

If you want custom there is Accurate Molds who do a terrific job, Mountain Molds (not sure if they do shotgun slugs), Brooks and maybe a couple of others. Accurate will make the mould but not the core pin. You have to make it yourself or get someone else to make it. Erik at Hollow Point Moulds has a very good reputation and would likely make a core pin. Buckshot on this site also does (or did) custom machining.

I'd lean towards the top version as you will never get the pin out of the bottom one, you need a good taper or it will stick. My Lyman Foster mould is horrible that way. Also, check your balance point. You want a balance point about 1/3 the way back from the nose.

I'd try to stick with weight between 1 oz. and 1 3/8 oz. for ease of finding load info.

All this talk about slugs is getting me itching to go out shooting! It has been too long since I have been to teh range and longer since I shot slugs. I just spend some time checking several slugs I made up for testing. Still working on attached wad slugs, some hollow base as well and some with copper tube skirt. I just knurled 10 Nessler slugs for re-testing too.

Longbow

[FLTLVL]

I agree with you Longbow, this is getting to be addictive in all the right ways lol. I own a Lee .690 cavity round ball mold but I'm not to fond of that ball size. I find that they are a tad to big to fit in the wad through my cylinder bore barrel. Basically I'm searching for the slug that will give me the best penetration up to 25 to 50 yards out of a smooth bore with decent accuracy. Perhaps the .678 caliber round ball is what might work the best in my case after all....

[longbow]

I have not had any success at all with 0.690" round ball.s They are too big to fit into most wads I have been able to find and the one or two types I found that they did fit I got poor accuracy anyway. Not sure what it is with 0.690" as I have had excellent results with 0.662" patched to fit snug, 0.678" in Winchester yellow wads and 0.735" naked on a hard card wad column. I gave up trying with the 0.690" balls.

[FLTLVL]

If you had to choose Longbow between the the Lyman 525gr Slug or a .678 round ball... what would be your choice inside 50 yards?

[Hogtamer]

I bought the mihec / lyman mold and it is a wonderful tool. Get it hot and it will rain slugs. Also, use soft lead. I posted a thread with results a while back.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...e-MP-Lyman-525

[Ithaca Gunner]

The .690 round ball works very well in an Ithaca M-37 Deer Slayer smoothbore barrel with it's .700 straight bore using BPI Light Brush wads.



Left to right, a .690 round ball nested in a BPI Light Brush wad-a Lyman 575213OS in a sabot for 12ga.-Accurate 73-770s slug for 12ga. rifled barrels.



Target shot at 40yds. with LEE .690 round ball over 3 LEE .31 balls for a nice buck and ball load. I haven't had the time to work up a load for either the .58 Minnie in sabots, or the heavy slug for my rifled Deer Slayer barrel. The round ball load does not shoot well out of the rifled barrel, it's pretty much all over the paper.