Re-solutioning your paper nitrating solution?

[Ragnarok]

So yesterday I mixed-up some 'stump killer' and water...nitrated some paper. I got a lot of potassium nitrate stirred into the hot water...and it worked great. The dried paper stayed tough and samples fizzed fantastic!

Anyhow...I had thought I might nitrate some more paper today...and the nitrate solution has some interesting crystal structure in the bottom of the jar. I shook the jar around quite a bit and it stayed crystal. How do I get that stuff back into solution??

[dbosman]

Heat it in a water bath. You had a super saturated solution. The crystals formed as the solution cooled.

[Omnivore]

Neat! That's how you make rock candy too, with sugar instead of potassium nitrate of course.

I've been through the nitrating thing, and gave it up. Understand that you're talking with someone who uses paper cartridges exclusively in percussion revolvers-- I don't nitrate anymore. I use perm papers as they come out of the box, and I can shoot all day, until I get tired, over 100 rounds, and never concern myself with the little bits of paper left behind. They rinse out of the chambers with water and swabs, under the kitchen faucet. When I nitrated cigarette papers they still left some paper bits behind.

If you find a recipe that leaves no paper behind after a long day of shooting (please be specific about the number of shots fired), then let us know. If it can be done, I don't know how. Not that I'd go along with it, because it's extra work, and because the little bit of leftover paper hasn't been an issue at all, but it would be interesting to know.

[Ragnarok]

I'm new to nitrating paper. Only experience I've had with potassium nitrate is with store-bought black powder and cheap beef-sticks!

I have made some paper revolver cartridges in .36 and .44...but for my revolver purposes loose loading works fine. I do own a nice Uberti third model Dragoon now...maybe I'll take another 'shot' at paper revolver cartridges. The Dragoon has a lot more chamber room than the .44 percussions of my past.

I'm working with a .54 Sharps carbine....but don't want my nitrating topic moved to 'The single-shot forum'...which seems mostly oriented towards brass cartridge arms. No nitrated paper or linen involved with a Ruger No.1, Hi-wall or Handi-rifle!

[bubba.50]

pardon my ignorance but, if the solution is 'super saturated' wouldn't that mean there'd still be enough suspended nitrate to do more papers?

not bein' a smart-@$$, just tryin' to learn somethin'.

[Ragnarok]

pardon my ignorance but, if the solution is 'super saturated' wouldn't that mean there'd still be enough suspended nitrate to do more papers?

not bein' a smart-@$$, just tryin' to learn somethin'.

I don't know?...I wondered the same thing. I guess I could try it and see.

The basic destructions for the potassium nitrate stuff I got online "blend stump-rot into warm water until you cannot get anymore to dissolve"...this being what I did...except I had probably too much stump rot in the jar so I heated it up some more and worked it into solution anyway!

I seriously thought it would stay in suspension...but no...there is probably a 1/2" or better crystal-stuff in the bottom of my little 10 ounce pickle relish jar.....

[Omnivore]

Well, you were truant during your high school basic physics classes then. Everyone should know that solubility and temperature are directly related (more of whatever can be dissolved if the temperature is higher, and so any saturated solution will result in precipitation as the temperature of the solution drops). People observed this phenomenon long, long ago, even though they may not have understood it to the extent we do today—The higher the heat, the faster something will dissolve AND the more of it can be dissolved in the given medium.

Same goes for moisture in the air, which is why we speak of “relative” humidity. Also, in your lead pot for casting bullets, only a fairly small amount of antimony will actually dissolve into the hot lead, and then as the lead cools, some of the antimony precipitates out and crystallizes, giving the antimony alloy bullet a slightly frosty, or satin, appearance compared to a pure lead, or lead & tin-only alloy which is often nice and shiny.

The term “super saturation” however is a bit different. I’ll leave you to look it up.

You also can heat water, or other such, to a temperature above its boiling point before it starts to actually boil. You may have noticed that as you pulled a cup of hot water from the microwave and it suddenly blasts forth like a geyser, burning your hand. We use "boiling chips" in a test tube to prevent such incidents. This stuff is fascinating (if at times painful).

Anyway, as I say; I'd be interested in knowing your results from firing a relatively large number of shots at the range with your new nitrated paper cartridges.

[Ragnarok]

Ehh....the potassium nitrate crystals re-emulsified into solution easily. I busted up the crystals in the jar and much of it stirred right in. Just a bit of heat and the rest stirred up clear too. Easier than mixing the initial brew. Looks like urine...smells vaguely like urine too.

I had tried some regular copier paper and it's likely to turn to mush wet. strips cut from an 'Abilene Machine' catalog page work well(about like phone book paper others use). I nitrated some strips of tissue paper too(not tp/Kleenex..like shirt paper)...it gets mushy too but dries tough enough and flashes great!

I'm in the prototypical cartridge stage...make a few rounds...try them. If they ain't up to what I want I salvage the bullets if needed and try something else. I'm getting close....non-nitrated paper wasn't always leaving the bore. That's why I'm messing with the nitrate stuff.

[Maven]

Don't know whether you can use this, but filter paper, e.g., coffee filters (unbleached or bleached), once "nitrated," burn very well/completely. Just a thought....

[Ragnarok]

Neat! That's how you make rock candy too, with sugar instead of potassium nitrate of course.

I've been through the nitrating thing, and gave it up. Understand that you're talking with someone who uses paper cartridges exclusively in percussion revolvers-- I don't nitrate anymore. I use perm papers as they come out of the box, and I can shoot all day, until I get tired, over 100 rounds, and never concern myself with the little bits of paper left behind. They rinse out of the chambers with water and swabs, under the kitchen faucet. When I nitrated cigarette papers they still left some paper bits behind.

If you find a recipe that leaves no paper behind after a long day of shooting (please be specific about the number of shots fired), then let us know. If it can be done, I don't know how. Not that I'd go along with it, because it's extra work, and because the little bit of leftover paper hasn't been an issue at all, but it would be interesting to know.

I have not tried the nitrated paper in any revolvers...however in the breech-loading Sharps .54 it seems that pretty much all the paper is consumed or ejected.

As far as how many shots until the Italian Sharps locks-up....mine will go 15 to 20 shots and you are done as in cannot close the breech without some Rem-oil. That's enough for me...however I imagine back in the days of fighting on or off horseback I would be disappointed if my Sharps carbine locked-up so quickly!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

A saturated solution, which has allowed some nitrate to recrystallize as it reached room temperature, should have plenty for the nitration of paper cartridges - and as has been said, you don't really need it to be nitrated if it is thin enough. There might be some point in using a hot solution with more nitrate for a more demanding application, such as converting cotton cord into fuse, but I even doubt that.

For a black powder revolver I would be inclined to use cigarette papers unsoaked, so that I could use the gummed edges. Then unless they could be very well protected I would spray it with cellulose lacquer. Even better if you can get it was collodion, which was used when cap and ball revolvers were state of the art, since this actually is a low grade of nitrocellulose, similar to the old-fashioned nitrate film stock.

So at last we have a useful answer to the question what to do with unidentified remnants of smokeless powder. Dissolve it to make a lacquer, and dip or brush paper cartridges. Alcohol will probably do it, ether or cellulose thinner certainly. It won't be enough to compromise safety in a black powder firearm. I would evaporate the dregs without heat on a can lid or piece of foil, though, and set light to it, in case you have liberated any tiny beads of nitroglycerin.