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Thread: Cleaning patented breech/Ante chamber

  1. #1
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    Cleaning patented breech/Ante chamber

    This is something i Recently learned and feel it to be VERY important and VERY overlooked! When Idahoron was here on his Whitetail hunt he explained to me that TC Sidelocks have whats called a Patented breech, for folks that dont know what this is, what i am talking about, ever notice when you pull your bore brush out that your brush is pinched down in the front end? You can't help but feel it when you bottom your bore brush out against the breech, the tip of your bore brush is actually going down in the Patented breech/Ante chamber a bit. When cleaning your barrel, your patched jag stops at the breech face/breech shoulders and does nothing to the PB/AC, This chamber is different (a lot bigger) in barrels such as Green Mountain, but its stil there. My point is this area seldom if ever gets cleaned, or cleaned properly.
    I will not go into detail on my cleaning process as each has his own way/method, i will say that i clean my barrels DOWN TO BARE STEEL, I shoot Paper Patched and sized bullets in my Rifles therefore i don't use Lube, my barrels are easy to clean after a shooting session thanks to PP Bullets. When i get my barrels clean and thoroughly DRY i use a good quality gun oil internally and externally, i use a generous amount down the bore, and swab an oily patch back n forth a few times before i store my gun, i want to know the bore is coated and protected well! I always store my rifles barrel up against my wall, etc. Before i shoot i run several dry patches down my barrel to dry this oil out, after 3-4 dry patches i leave the last one seated against the Breech face/shoulders, and i pop 2 Caps, then check the patch for a brownish burn color to make sure i am getting good spark. I then proceed to load my gun.
    My Stainless GM LRH .50 Cal would hangfire on the first shot out almost everytime, they were slight hangfires, (split half second type hangtime) Regardless they were HANGFIRES and would likely have costed me an animal in a hunting situation. This DROVE ME NUTS!! After the first shot, the rifle would NEVER do it again.
    After learning about the Patented breech/Ante Chamber i got to thinking, i use a generous amount of oil down my barrel, i also use a piece of paper towel between my hammer and nipple to absorb any excess oil that drips out the nipple, i store my rifle barrel up/butt down. There is stil area in this Patented Breech/Ante chamber to collect excess oil, gunk, goo, rust, etc. I have ZERO DOUBT this was my hangfire problem.
    To clean this you need a .30-37 Cal brush, i used a 37 and it worked great in my GM barrel, With a TC barrel you would be better off with a .30 Cal brush since the chamber is MUCH smaller. You can also use a Patented breech fouling scraper, i have one that TC makes it is slightly rounded to fit there Patented Breech, you could also use a 32 Cal fouling scraper, For a TC you will need a smaller diameter cleaning rod or the shoulders of the rod will likely hang up on the breech face/shoulders and not slip in to the Patented breech/Ante Chamber, if this has never been cleaned i HIGHLY advise the fouling scraper to cut through the gunk, rust, etc. then use the .30-37 Cal bore brush, and finally wrap a patch tightly around the bore brush leaving a 1/4 to 1/2 inch excess patch in front, push that in and you will feel it enter the Patented Breech/Ante Chamber, twist it, push pull, change patches etc. to get it clean and dry.
    Now to those that say i use to much oil, YES I DO, and i will continue, it protects my bore, i would rather use a bit to much oil than not enough and have my bore rust. I dont pour oil down my barrel, but i use a generous amount, i use the New pump spray Rem oil, made from the original Rem oil, i feel it to be superior to the regular stuff, i use 3-4 pushes of the pump sprayer directly in the bore, then wet a patch with a little shot of it, and swab back n forth a few times, i put a piece of paper towel between the hammer and nipple and im done. My barrels are literally like mirrors inside, so i will continue my process! I will start storing my guns barrel down from now on.
    Now when i Swab the oil out of my barrel before i shoot i will also be wrapping a patch or 2 around my small bore brush and drying out the Patented Breech/Ante chamber REALLY good as well, THEN pop my 2 Caps off against a dry clean patch on my Cal specific Jag and check for burn. Load up and go!
    Idahoron has some good pictures of what the Patented breech looks like, and a video or 2 of his GM barrels, I hope he will share those here.
    Forum member rfd is an ABSOLUTE wealth of knowledge in this area!! I hope he will join in with some photos as well, rfd had some pics on a recent thread here. With rfd having the correct tools to pull Breech plugs (which he does often) he has more knowledge than anyone i know in this area, he helped me out a bunch and is a super nice guy, thank you again rfd!
    No one is telling ANYONE they need/or should be pulling their breech plugs. You can clean and maintain these Patented breeches/Anti chambers just as you normally clean your barrel, ABSOLUTELY no need to pull your breech plug! rfd has the proper tools for doing so WITHOUT damaging the plug, barrel, or both. If you are dumb enough to head out to your vise with your barrel and a Crescent Wrench you were warned
    Last edited by 54bore; 01-06-2017 at 10:37 AM.

  2. #2
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    would love to see the photos or video. thanks for posting this, I never knew about it either.

  3. #3
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    I've always seen it expressed as "patent" breech rather than "patented", but the point is a good one. Some of the owners' manuals don't address it. I use a 35 caliber jag for the Lyman/Investarms 50 cal.

    Any percussion rifle having a breech snail (as opposed to a powder drum threaded into the side of the barrel) for certain has a patent breech (there's no other way to do it).

    I believe that even some powder drum type percussion guns, and even some flintlocks are being made with a breech chamber. (Correct me if I'm wrong) In those cases it's a way to get more thread depth into the barrel, and still use the old architecture (breech plugs tended to thread only a very short distance into the barrel back in the 1700s). Otherwise, to get more plug thread depth, the flash hole or the powder drum would have to sit farther forward (in front of the front of the breech plug) and that would change the position of the lock and most everything else.

    I think that a good "slush pumping" with hot water will clean out the breech chamber pretty well, but I always get down in there with a 35 cal jag and swab it out anyway (you'll have to figure out the size of your breech chamber ). In any case, the gun owner definitely should be aware that the smaller chamber in the breech exists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omnivore View Post
    I think that a good "slush pumping" with hot water will clean out the breech chamber pretty well, but I always get down in there with a 35 cal jag and swab it out anyway (you'll have to figure out the size of your breech chamber ). In any case, the gun owner definitely should be aware that the smaller chamber in the breech exists.
    I fully agree Omnivore! Once you know the breech chamber is clean a good 'Slush pumping' after a shooting session should get most of the gunk, but its stil a darn good idea to get in there and clean it with a brush that fits it, and then dry it out good of any water with a few dry patches wrapped around the brush. There's no doubt there are a TON of old muzzleloaders out there that are REALLY NASTY in this area! On a used barrel that you know nothing about, i would spend whatever time it took to get the chamber as clean as possible.

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    In 9 years, Never once has my traditions flintlock needed the brush down there into the breech. Hot soapy water does the job. Also with a shot of gun scrubber to dry that area free of any water/moisture after cleaning.

  6. #6
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    Good advice about the patent breach if you have them. I have had the breaches off of two TC barrels. One a Hawken in 45 and one other in 50. Both had a shallow depression or radius on the breach face. Nothing to speak of. I have had the breaches off of two Italy made rifles.Great plains rifles. Now they had a patent sub chamber ..350" dia and .50" deep. I clean them with a cleaning rod with a loop tip. I pull a strip of beadsheet through the loop partway and over the the loop tip and down the barrel we go. Once on the bottom give the rod some turns and out we go. Repeat as needed.
    n.h.schmidt

  7. #7
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    for 40 years of muzzle loader shooting all I ever did was pump the breach with hot water then dry with wd-40. breaches are always clean and never any rust or miss fires.

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    Attachment 184529

    Here is what they look like

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rancher1913 View Post
    would love to see the photos or video. thanks for posting this, I never knew about it either.
    I had a friend tell me that he had a bullet loaded in the barrel for over 20 years. He wanted me to take it out. So I agreed.
    I didn't know that the bullet was so I took a picture.



    After I took the picture I decided to push it out with grease. I installed a long grease zerk and gave it a couple pumps. I shot out to about 2" before the end. So I screwed in the jag and took it out.



    I cleaned the barrel as well as I could and JB bore paste on it.



    I did what I could with the breech and took pictures.
    Before



    After






    The Green Mountain barrels are different. They don't have a Patent breech like a TC does but they do have a chamber that is slightly smaller. In these pictures you can see the edge of the chamber if you look close.





    I hope this video works. It is a video of one of my green mountain barrels. It shows the shoulder of the chamber.

    http://vid223.photobucket.com/albums...psqsk03unw.mp4

  10. #10
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    my humble opinion on breech plugs for both offshore or onshore trad ml guns is that there is no initial need to remove them, and either know, or hope, that the threads of all the things screwed into the barrel - breech plug (patent or classic flat face), touch hole liner, bolster, clean out screw, nipple - were properly lubed to facilitate *possible* future remove.

    what "future removal"? that depends on how well the gun is maintained and how often it's used and what level of consistent ignition and overall accuracy one requires from the gun. gun value may also enter the equation - a $400 offshore gun may be addressed quite diff'rently than a $2500 onshore custom. there is a life cycle for all firearm parts, and in particular for muzzleloaders that are loaded with either real bp or a bp sub. these powders are hygroscopic and corrosive, and have a strong tendency to get into things we'd never believe they'd get into, like components threaded in the chamber area of a barrel. this means that the threads of these components can be compromised by powder combustion residue, and when those poorly lubed, or not-at-all-lubed threads corrode, these components can be very very hard to remove - if at all without barrel harm. or, a flintlock was tight patched dry balled (what, you never had that happen, yet? hah!) and no screw worm will budge that lead, nor is there any room against the flat breech face to even get in a grain of powder, and that leaves pulling the breech to free the patched ball.

    "what's to remove and what's 'properly lubed'?". at the very least, touch hole liners and nipples, because they do wear out ... FAR more so for nipples than vent liners. at the very most, a percussion gun's bolster/snail, and/or the breech plug. whatever is removed goes back with anti-seize lube. it's that simple.

    personally, i see no added functional value to those offshore trad ml patent breech plugs. they only add another chore that i would need to address - cleaning the ante-chamber after a shooting session and/or during the shooting session. lotsa dependencies as to what to do, and what not to do. but for me, and getting the most consistent accuracy and ignition, they need at least a good cleaning after a session. it's the chamber area(s) that take a beating during firing, and if yer shooting without addressing fouling control, it's the chamber area(s) that's never addressed by the patched ball yer pushing down on top of the powder column that sits in the powder residue of the chamber(s).

    to address, or not address, fouling control depends on the shooting task at hand, and imo the venues for range shooting, woods walks, and hunting are just different. and we're all gonna do whatever we think is best for each of us, as personal choice is always a good thing. so as always, ymmv.

  11. #11
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    AWESOME, thank you Ron and rfd!! Video worked flawless Ron! In Ron's video you can see the edge/shoulder of the chamber, it is the super bright ring, it looks like 2 bright rings, When you push your patched jag down the barrel it STOPS at that bright ring, leaving the chamber below untouched, the only way to get in there is with a Smaller Caliber brush, i used a 37 Cal brush on my GM barrel and it worked great, then i wrapped a clean dry patch around the brush leaving a little extra out front, went back in and turned it several times, i changed patches out etc. and did this until they came out nice a clean.

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    rfd, one day you'll learn how to pull those off shore plugs

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    I use big patches & my ball puller, Then i use a pipe cleaner . Never had any problems. plus hot sopyb water first ; )
    H/D

  14. #14
    Moderator Emeritus JeffinNZ's Avatar
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    Ante chambers are a complete nonsense and a PITA IMHO. I have been baby sitting a .54 GPR for quite some time and don't shoot it partly because I hate cleaning it. In contrast the straight barrel with White Lightning vent liner on my .40cal flinter is dead easy to clean.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrontierMuzzleloading View Post
    rfd, one day you'll learn how to pull those off shore plugs
    you mean those SPANISH gun plugs - not a chance, i won't buy such nonsense and you already know that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by idahoron View Post
    excellent video, ron. that's a patent breech for shure, with it's ante-chamber and way down to the right is the flue. i hate them damn things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffinNZ View Post
    Ante chambers are a complete nonsense and a PITA IMHO. I have been baby sitting a .54 GPR for quite some time and don't shoot it partly because I hate cleaning it. In contrast the straight barrel with White Lightning vent liner on my .40cal flinter is dead easy to clean.
    right on, brother. gimme a flat faced breech and a well located chambers white lightning liner for ALL my flinters. couple that with a well tuned lock and a smooth trigger system and i'm ready to rock.

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I don't see the problem. I was cleaning mine for years before I even knew about the oddity. Never had a problem.
    Aim small, miss small!

  19. #19
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    Sometimes a guy will clean his gun and he knows that it is clean. But still will bet a pinch of color. That is from the Chamber and or breech. Most guys think it is from the barrel, and it can be flash rust on real hot water. But in my opinion it comes from the breech plug and or chamber.

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    thats why i give it a shot of gun scrubber, alcohol, carb/brake cleaner, dries that area extremely well and keeps it rust free. A little extra scrubbing never hurts though.

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