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Thread: Smokeless powder in MagTech brass shotgun shells?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    If you can't find the cushion and card wads in the proper size (11 gauge for a 12 gauge brass shell) try circle fly. They make wads. I use their wads for loading my 12 gauge brass hulls. I also use Red Dot powder and large pistol primers.

  2. #22
    Boolit Mold
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    There are some 12ga brass, smokeless recipes in the 12ga from hell thread if i remember correctly.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master 1989toddm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bentaz View Post
    There are some 12ga brass, smokeless recipes in the 12ga from hell thread if i remember correctly.
    Any idea which page?
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  4. #24
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    From my research I can tell you this about the wad column. After putting the card/seal over the powder, the wad column needs to be a minimum of half the inside diameter of the shell, and a maximum of the ID of the shell. You can use a mylar wrap if you want, but it isn't nessesary. Oh, if you use two felt wads put a drop of oil in the top one, and squeeze it, so it will absorb it. This will help with leading. Put an over shot card on top and seal it with Elmer's glue. This is from memory. I read it in an Ed Harris article. It was talking about loading 410 brass shells, but the reasons for the rules are the same. I'd find an old manual that has recipes that use the old Alcan felt wads and seals. Look for one that uses a straight walled hull. I'd use Promo/Red Dot, or Green Dot.

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  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    Hmmm....here's an article on this.

    https://www.americanhunter.org/artic...ss-shotshells/

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  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    Brass shotgun shells are only for black powder, not smokeless? Someone should have told the U.S. Army who has used smokeless brass shells for generations.

    It depends on the cases. Brass cases are much thinner than paper or plastic. This requires different wads. Also in increases volumes so that powders and loads that work with the smaller volume cases with not work properly with all brass.

    Whether loaded with smokeless or black the allowable pressure limits will be the same. The problem with MagTech cases is that they are folded head, like a 22 rim fire, so they will not be as durable or long lived. Also the rim will be a weak point and if it fails there will be nothing to contain the pressure whereas with a solid head case the sidewalls of the head itself may contain some of the pressure in the event of a crack.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master

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    Find the article that CE Ed Harris wrote about it. He has no issues with it.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master

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    Find the article that CE Ed Harris wrote about it. He has no issues with it.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master

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    A gun is like a parachute: If you need one and don't have one, you won't be needing one again.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    Informativo 44 - polvoras CBC - 2016 - FIREARMS.pdf

    I'VE been loading the same set of 25 .410 brass shells for more than one year with smokeless, no problem.

    You can try loads with red dot (magtech has a powder probably not available in America, named 250, it's very fast burning comparable to red dot and it's what's CBC have data for brass shells). You can also try International and Clay powders, maybe 231. I've been trying to compare American powders to what we have in Brazil and found many similarities in regular loads. Check page 2 of this pdf and look for the line PRESIDENTE, which means brass hull trademark. Look at grains (ex 12ga is 15.7 grains of 250 for 32 grams of shot -- 1 1/8oz)

    Hope this helps. I also posted the handloader 266 article here in the forum somewhere, sometime ago.....

  11. #31
    anyone have any data for 28 gauge?

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by georgewxxx View Post
    If you really want to know how to load Magtec brass shells, either find two 2010 Handloader magazines, #266 & 267, or buy a booklet sold by Ballistic Products Inc., authored by Rober VanDenburg the same person that wrote articles in the Handloader. They have plenty of recipes for smokeless powder. He'll tell you why new South American CBC(Magtec) & RMC(Rocky Mountain Cartridge) brass shell's being sold now aren't all the same, plus how the old brass shells are also somewhat different, depending on manufacture. Kind of like the old Alcan shells, some were primed with shotshell primers and some with large pistol primers, like the older Remington and Winchester shells.

    Years ago I loaded 12 Ga. Remington & Winchester brass shells using 10 Ga. paper wads. 16 Ga. using 12 Ga. paper wads. Some 10 Ga. brass could be loaded with 10 Ga. components. Don't recall loading 20Ga. , But we may have.
    Just received this 'Reloading Brass Shotshells' from Van Denburg: a 40 page ripoff ! Don't buy it. Nothing but Bla Bla Bla and no smokeless powder load data.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    I was all set to buy that and did some reading and found hidden away that it was all black powder loads, no smokeless.

    It appears that the brass Magtech brass lives in a world of its own.
    The only want to load it with smokeless is to break the shotgunner reloaders number one rule, no substitutions, ever. If you pick a recipe you follow it exactly.

    It seems to me that if you use a certain amount of common sense.
    And some practice experience reloading metallic cartridges. That some of that could be used. Like don't start with a max load.

    If I see a recipe for a 12 ga with a given hull, wad column, payload and a charge of say 20 grains of Red Dot. It seems to me that it would be wise to reduce that load by 10% if I was putting it in a brass hull. It also seems to me that the hull is thinner, leaving more space, not less. Meaning lower pressures, not higher.

    I would start with a standard load for ga, shot wise, not max. So probably a 1 oz load.
    If I was concerned I might drop to a 7/8ths.

    Primers it is hard to compare 209's to I believe it was large pistol the magtech brass recommends. I would not use magnum.

    Then ideally you would shoot that round in a good solid modern gun. One that you trust, with good lock up.

    I think the main thing is common sense, good reloading practices, lots of notes. Lots of testing. I know I have been slack about getting my testing done. So I have put the brass on hold until I have a chance to learn more.

    The brass hulls are cool, love the look, the feel. Dropping a brass hull into an nice single or side by side. Well that is just cherry's on top ain't it?

    Yes it would be nice to see someone publish something definitive. A solid recipe for this gauge, this hull, use this primer, these wads, this much powder of x, w, and z. And this much shot and do this to seal overshot cards and it should work.

    But the liability issue is I believe huge.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    I was all set to buy that and did some reading and found hidden away that it was all black powder loads, no smokeless.

    It appears that the brass Magtech brass lives in a world of its own.
    The only want to load it with smokeless is to break the shotgunner reloaders number one rule, no substitutions, ever. If you pick a recipe you follow it exactly.

    It seems to me that if you use a certain amount of common sense.
    And some practice experience reloading metallic cartridges. That some of that could be used. Like don't start with a max load.

    If I see a recipe for a 12 ga with a given hull, wad column, payload and a charge of say 20 grains of Red Dot. It seems to me that it would be wise to reduce that load by 10% if I was putting it in a brass hull. It also seems to me that the hull is thinner, leaving more space, not less. Meaning lower pressures, not higher.

    I would start with a standard load for ga, shot wise, not max. So probably a 1 oz load.
    If I was concerned I might drop to a 7/8ths.

    Primers it is hard to compare 209's to I believe it was large pistol the magtech brass recommends. I would not use magnum.

    Then ideally you would shoot that round in a good solid modern gun. One that you trust, with good lock up.

    I think the main thing is common sense, good reloading practices, lots of notes. Lots of testing. I know I have been slack about getting my testing done. So I have put the brass on hold until I have a chance to learn more.

    The brass hulls are cool, love the look, the feel. Dropping a brass hull into an nice single or side by side. Well that is just cherry's on top ain't it?

    Yes it would be nice to see someone publish something definitive. A solid recipe for this gauge, this hull, use this primer, these wads, this much powder of x, w, and z. And this much shot and do this to seal overshot cards and it should work.

    But the liability issue is I believe huge.
    Ghosthawk,
    Wright, liability is probably the most probable reason for not having any load data for Magteck Shotshell Brass with smokeless powder. I started reloading with a Mauser 71/84 (commonly called Mauser 43) long time ago and Mauser claimed it was only to be loaded with black powder, which was the original load for it. CIL used to make ammo for it using smokeless powder, 21gr. of round flat flake powder as opposed to 77 FFG. I reloaded smokeless hundreds of times in it, starting low and working my way up, without issues BUT smokeless data could be found for it while these Magtech Brass don't refer to any smokeless data. I tried 14gr. of Unique in my 28ga Magtech brass with a nitro 24g OP wad, 5X1/8" felt wads, 3/4oz 7.5 shot and a 24g OS card before sealing it with Elm. glue. Terrible pattern, far less recoil than winchester or remington factory ammo. After looking for 24ga fiber wads and finding out they were back order everywhere, I went to a wine making outfit and bought wine bottle corks. Welded a drill bit to a 9/16" hollow punch and drilled myself 3/4" wads (wine bottle corks are 1 1/2" long so I cut them in half prior to punching the inside). Found it easier to hold the corks tight in a vise and run the hollow punch through them. Tight fit in the 28ga brass. Read somewhere 1/8" to 1/4" thick parafin cookies should be used to make a proper seal, probable between the OP nitro card and the 3/4" cork wad. All this takes testing and patience. Also realised the white glue on top of the OS card leaves a hard ridge inside the brass neck, hard to remove and kind of in the way every time you wanna insert a wad for the next reload.
    I had to scratch all those ridges with a knife. I will try making a seal using the hot wax from a burning candle and see if it leaves less of a mess in the brass.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    I was lucky in a couple of respects. I started with a box of .410's. I have an old Mossberg Bolt action .410 with screw on full choke. (remove it for straight cyl bore)

    The brass shells worked well it it, better than .303 british with rims trimmed down.

    I did not play with those a lot but I found a recipe for a powder I had and went from there.

    From there I moved to 20 ga as I knew the brass would be easy enough to make a set of hand tools to reload. Really did not want to invest in the tools, hulls, wads, powders just to reload a few 20's. I have a H&R Single shot 20 that I will shoot them in. Like new, awesome condition. Does not look like it ever shot a box of shells.

    Slowly I am growing my powder supply. I think for the .410 I used IMR 4227. Found a recipe and was careful.

    For 12 ga I have an old pawn shop found Lyman easy loader that I have converted to use MEC charge bar and bushings for the powder side. Original shot side had the 1 oz bushing and that is fine for me. Most of what I load is either buckshot or slugs. Mostly I just wanted that ability to cast for my shotguns. Have some effective "varmint" rounds available. Can not believe what they sell buckshot loads for these days.

    I think that most guys that figure it out just keep quiet. No one wants to take a chance on saying something and have some dufus blow himself or someone else up. And up losing everything because we ran our mouth.

    Just not worth the risk.

    And I will admit, I do NOT know what is going to happen when I pull the trigger on that 20 ga. And that may have something to do with why I have not tested them yet.

    That and I don't have the need.

    Mostly I have the need to try to be ready for whatever may come.
    And that is a hard nut to crack when you don't know what you might have to deal with.

    So I guess for me the brass shotshells are just a spare string for my bow. One more tool in the box, just in case.

    I also wish they were not so expensive. Knew I should have bought some back in the 80's. Should have done a lot of things back then I am wishing now I had gotten done.

  16. #36
    "I have found a better load for the brass 16 gauge shells. 20 grains of Trail Boss (DO NOT COMPRESS THIS POWDER, just gently seat the wads on top of the powder)"

    How was the recoil? How full was the case?
    Last edited by Dansmith89; 07-16-2017 at 11:02 PM.

  17. #37
    Not very full. Recoil felt right, it was lighter than a field load but not by much. I went a few grains higher but it blew a donut in the pattern.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check