Svarog Russian slug molds?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Petander: We are basically improving on the versatility of the Brown Bess Musket (1720-1840) by inventing more stuff to shoot from our guns.

Our Guns don't foul due to Smokeless Powder, our Guns are more accurate due to better machining and closer tolerances. Most of our guns are Repeaters, and some even have Rifled Barrels.

Funny thing,,, That slug you show above would probably shoot real well from a .75 cal. Brown Bess Musket in fact I bet it would be very similar to shooting it from any Smoothbore Shotgun we have now. Just more smoke. (Maybe one wrap of paper to take up the slack.)

So it would appear that what we are doing here would be transferable back in time to earlier uses. I wonder if people from 200 years ago would find these new projectiles useful or if they would just as soon shoot round balls?

Questions flooding into the mind of the concerned shooter today. Am I more Lethal now than 200 years ago?

Probably not! They all carried Guns, Big Knives and Tomahawks and actually knew how to use them.

The average English Archer could get 10 Aimed Shots off in a minute and was good out to 80-100 yards. Muskets not even close.

We've known how to kill things for a long time. Are we better at it now? Not by as much as you would think.

Randy

[pashiner]

Imagine handing a 590a1 to George washington, loaded with good modern slugs. I'd love to see the look on his face!

[longbow]

gp:

While I wouldn't mind shooting a few of those I can do almost the same slug/wad arrangement with my home made moulds and actually plan to.

I do appreciate the offer but sending slugs across the border is a no-no unless you have an FFL Homeland Security does not want ammunition or reloading supplies leaving the US. That includes bullets, boolits and even empty brass. I can send stuff to you but Americans are not allowed to export without having an FFL.

I am rapidly reaching the conclusion that if I don't see some significant accuracy improvements with attached wad slugs or my better HB slug loads at long range (75 to 100 yards) I will either accept the 50 - 60 yard limitations using round balls and the better slugs or take a step into the 21st century and get a rifled choke tube or fully rifled barrel. I lean towards the rifled choke tube mostly because what I like about shotguns is their versatility and a fully rifled slug gun is not very versatile. It is essentially a large bore rifle of mediocre accuracy potential.

Now before the abuse begins, I know some people are getting some pretty good accuracy from their rifled shotguns and in many cases they may be getting accuracy as good as some rifles (lever action guns come to mind as do milsurps). However, that does not seem to be the norm especially for pump guns.

I like being able to drop in a birdshot load, buckshot load or slug. Even if a guy has a buck and slug barrel it is a buck and slug barrel not just a slug barrel. With screw in choke tubes and a moderate length barrel a guy can use the same gun for a variety of tasks.

While I'd like a nice rifled gun in a solid bolt action or single shot for "ultimate" long range sniping with a slug that does become a dedicated slug gun due to both sights and rifling. The rifled choke tube allows at least reasonable use as both slug and buckshot gun that a guy could make do with birdshot loads though wingshooting with sights might be a bit odd.

One man's opinion. Different strokes and all that.

I like the smoothbore which is why I have been trying to get the best slug load I can. Obviously I am still looking! But it is fun trying things and keeps me off the street.

I think I will order some of those wads and make up an attached wad slug like those Russian slugs. I suspect that is about as good as a home tinkerer is going to get unless he machines each wad out of solid stock. I haven't given up yet but I think experimenting (or at least so many experiments!) is coming to an end.

And thanks again for the offer. Much appreciated.

Longbow

[gpidaho]

Thanks for the education Longbow. I'm sure the USPS would have explained it in less than friendly terms when I declared to them the item being sent. I'm just way too used to and appreciative of the free and open attitudes toward guns and ammunition in general we enjoy here in Idaho. Some laws make sense to me, some don't but I don't write them, just try to follow them best I can. Thanks again. Gp

[longbow]

gp:

Like I said, I live close to the border. I used to drive to Colville Washington to buy my reloading supplies at Clark's Allsports up until 9/11 then Homeland Security decided that not only shouldn't non-US citizens be in possession of firearms or reloading components in the US but that they would make it a felony for US citizens to export most things gun or reloading related unless they had an FFL.

While I am all for safety and stopping terrorists in their tracks, I'm not seeing how these rules are making a dent in any of it. I'm kinda doubting the ISIS, Al-Qaeda and others like them reload at all, much less cast bullets! I could see restrictions on exporting powder in large amounts, that would make some sense. However, as you say, we don't write the rules and I for one do not want to cross Homeland Security!

Longbow

[Petander]

I found some of these Svarog 12 gauge fullbore slugs today,they have hit a paper target and then snow.

This is the "press the wad in" -design called Paradox, at least now the wads are tight in.

They look like they could be loaded again in a pinch. Snow is a friend.

I developed a reasonably powerful load for these,glad we have this forum because a memory card failed and I lost quite a bit of data in photograph form. Pics between Nov 2016- March 2019 just disappeared.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I just checked the Svarog website. Everything seems to be "Out of Stock". Guess I missed the boat again.

[gpidaho]

I just checked the Svarog website. Everything seems to be "Out of Stock". Guess I missed the boat again.

Charlie: Check "The Reloaders Network" store. I just got the paradox mould from them and it shoots real well in my shotguns. Two 2 1/2" five shot groups yesterday at fifty yards +. That's as good as I shoot with any slug. Gp

[gpidaho]

Petander: Yes, the wads don't seat all the way in by about 1/16" Doesn't seem to hurt anything. That 11,000 psi charge tucks them in nicely. Any of you thinking of getting this wad system, don't scrimp. Get the wad seating tool and most importantly, get those simple little metal shims so you don't crush the wad cushion when you're seating the wad into the slug. Gp

[longbow]

Good advice gp!

After the discussion on seating the wads I decided I hadn't done it right as they weren't quite all the way in so I tried "crushing" them down... and so the cushion leg crushed! DOH!

I have got to get out with my tighter bore Mossberg and try these things again. I don't like having to buy proprietary wads but I guess if they work and a guy buys a couple thousand wads that should do a while.

I like the slugs!

Longbow

[gpidaho]

Longbow: On my recent range trip I fired five each of the paradox slugs one batch used the crimp in wads the other group used a X12X, brush wad and a 16ga. nitro card under the slug with a standard base pin (not the pin for the crimp in wads) both were with a light load of 33gr. Blue Dot. The first group was more vertical the second more horizontal but both were under 3" at 50 yrds. + So until more testing is done, I'm not going to say the crimp in wad is mandatory. The brush wads are a good bit cheaper. Gp

[longbow]

Its an old pic that Petander posted there... or an old post with pic... but I hadn't noticed until now that the driving bands appear to have been squished quite a bit! must be a tight bored gun.

What do those mic at?

Just curious.

In my single shot with 0.733" bore the 0.727" as cast Paradox slugs I tried are a bit of a rattle fit. Accuracy was okay but not great. They may do better in the tighter bored Mossberg.

[Petander]

Its an old pic that Petander posted there... or an old post with pic... but I hadn't noticed until now that the driving bands appear to have been squished quite a bit! must be a tight bored gun.

What do those mic at?

Just curious.

In my single shot with 0.733" bore the 0.727" as cast Paradox slugs I tried are a bit of a rattle fit. Accuracy was okay but not great. They may do better in the tighter bored Mossberg.

I will mic them tomorrow,I have saved them for that purpose. Benelli M3 Super 90,cyl bore.

[Petander]

Those slugs are .722 so that's my bore, being cylinder. The slugs really get squeezed a bit...

Accuracy was not bad for a smooth barrel,I need to load more and confirm.

[longbow]

That is a bunch of squeezing!

Are the slugs soft lead or ACWW/range scrap? Or... recast shot? Hard or soft is the question?

I will say that it doesn't take much slop to ruin accuracy. Just a thou or two is enough. Better to have tight swage to bore fit I think. You certainly have that!

Thanks for posting measurements.

Longbow

[Petander]

That is a bunch of squeezing!

Are the slugs soft lead or ACWW/range scrap? Or... recast shot? Hard or soft is the question?

I will say that it doesn't take much slop to ruin accuracy. Just a thou or two is enough. Better to have tight swage to bore fit I think. You certainly have that!

Thanks for posting measurements.

Longbow

It's hard for an average slug, around 16 BHN. WW/Mono - mix. Maybe 10-20% mono. Being such a hollow thing, it smashes / swages easily and I wasn't worried about the size.



These penetrate 10 mm steel, I lost my load data in a SD card failure but I remember it except velocity.

[longbow]

I am thinking that Wilhelm Brenneke got it right with his design and current sizing as I read it. They make the slug big at 0.735" as I understand it then the slugs swage to fit the bore. I think any "normal" thickness skirt and HB slug will swage to fit up to full choke at least so shouldn't mind being squeezed 0.005" to 0.010" at all. By normal I mean up to about 0.100" skirt thickness and HB up into the nose so whole slug can swage.

My TC slug might not be a good candidate for much squeezing as the HB ends at the nose so if hard it may resist swaging some in tight bore or choke. I've made a different nose form and HB plug to make a round nose Brenneke style slug from that mould as well. As with all my other slugs... waiting for time to reload and test.

I do like the Russian Paradox and Tusker moulds so may take the plunge whether I need them or not... I want them!

I'm betting you can use the wads the guys are using for the Svarog fragmenting slug for these too with screw on system... or felt wads screwed on like Brenneke and in rifled gun or maybe rifled choke tube I bet they don't even need attached wads.

How did that one hit 10mm steel and flatten sideways? Did it blow right through then tumble and hit the ground sideways? Doesn't look like the nose is mushroomed which I'd expect.

That's pretty thick steel for a slug to penetrate too! What distance? 25m? Even so pretty impressive!

Longbow

[Petander]

How did that one hit 10mm steel and flatten sideways? Did it blow right through then tumble and hit the ground sideways? Doesn't look like the nose is mushroomed which I'd expect.

Oh no,I wasn't clear: I just smashed one with a hammer now,for a pic.

But we had an old heavy steel claythrower stand half buried in snow at the range,just scrap. I shot at it a couple of times in winter and to my surprise this slug made holes. About 25 m yes.

[longbow]

Okay... that makes more sense now. When I reread you said "These penetrate 10mm steel..." not that one penetrated 10mm steel. Gotcha! Slow old brain I have.

Powder coating makes more and more sense for slugs. I may have to try it.

Longbow

[gpidaho]

Longbow. I've been powder coating for some time now and believe it to be very beneficial . Great tool when you need to add a little girth and it (in my opinion) works like a Teflon wrap. Very easy to do and lots of information right here on our forum in the lubes and alternatives threads. Gp