Svarog Russian slug molds?

[Hogtamer]

BT, it's about time somebody field tested some of those Russkie slugs on some pigs. Let's see what those things to something on the hoof! You've fot a xouple of sick days in the bank I just know. My trigger finger is itching bad and there was even a Nt. Geo. special on pigs last that got my blood up. Go get 'em!

[Petander]

I have managed to seat them flush with the bottom of the slug. However the cushion section gets a bit of distortion.

Flush may be the correct way. I sprayed some Aqualube (Hi Tek sizing lube) and the wad went flush in. But like you said,the cushion "gives" a little when seating with more force.

Attachment 236004.

But this looks right.

[longbow]

Hmmmm... I'll have to try again. The ones KrackenFan69 sent me looked just like Petander's and didn't want to go any deeper when I tried. I am sure they didn't settle in any when I loaded them into the hulls using my MEC Sizemaster either.

I will give it another go to see if I can get them deeper.

Could there be different length wads for the Gualandi clone and Paradox and Tusker clones (different skirt length?)?

One thing though is if they aren't seated in before the trigger is pulled they will be after! On that note I'll have to look at the ones I recovered. I can't recall for sure but I think one or two had wads still attached after digging them out of the berm.

I may stand corrected... again!

Longbow

[Ginsing]

They are all the same wads. I'll tell you longbow they do take some force to get deeper but they will sit flush given enough force.
I'm not sure the difference it will make how deep they are seated. An Internet search shows some people have reported better accuracy by seating them to at least the second step on the wad.
I really need to get out and test some of these head to head.

[Petander]

This depth is what I ended up with for now. I don't want to crush the wad,this goes relatively easy.

Attachment 236075

Attachment 236076.

Shooting tomorrow.

[jkcerda]

Petander. Those like nice and even. PC?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mine look the same but I haven't PC'd the slugs yet. Mine drop at .725 and with PC they will be right up to .730 with a decent coat of PC.

The step on the wad measures .520, but the register in the back of the slug is only .505. So that step on the wad will act as a stop to prevent the wad from being pushed deeper into the slug.

Obviously if you push on it hard enough you could compress the UHMW enough where the wad could go in deeper. This might happen (probably will) during firing but we won't know until we recover some fired slugs. Typically we see wads compressed into any hole available on the back end of a slug.

Can't wait to shoot these thru the A5.

Randy

[longbow]

Well, I guess I stand corrected... sort of. I just went and looked at the recovered slugs which other than being banged up look like the wad depth you have Randy. Certainly not deeper.

I tried seating a new one further in but to do so required crushing the cushion and it distorted. I maybe went a bit beyond required pressure but it wasn't going in any other way!

There is a difference in the slugs though. The ones KrackenFan69 sent me have a round nose not TC like yours. Oddly it looks like an original Paradox slug though smaller and of course hollow where they were solid. Pic:



I just did a search and cannot find these anymore! All I find are the ones like you have referred to as both Paradox and Tusker! Go figure!

I'd think the cavities are the same but... that wad really didn't want to go deeper. I've got a few left to test and when I seat them in the hulls I run the Sizemaster right down so they will be seated as deep as they will go anyway. any more will happen at firing.

Longbow

[tomme boy]

Longbow, did your mold come from the guy in Canada? He has that style of paradox mold if I remember right that you have. The ones straight from Russia have 3 driving bands.

[longbow]

I don't have a mould. These were sent to me by KrackenFan69. Not sure where he got his mould.

I was thinking of buying one myself and had seen this style for sale on eBay but not anymore. I stole that pic from one of Bloodtrail's posts. He seems to have a well rounded collection of moulds!

I'd figure they all have the same internal cavity to suit that wad but I'll tell you I crushed the cushion leg trying to seat it deeper.

I still think the wad is too long so subject to distortion plus they are a proprietary wad so may not always be available. Now having said that I am sure felt wads could be attached Brenneke like if a guy couldn't get the special wads. So, I might still pick one up at some point.

I do like the slugs KrackenFan69 sent me. In reality though all of them should shoot about the same... same cavity, similar weight (I think) and same tail wad.

Those Russians are doing a pretty good job of supplying a variety of moulds for slug shooters!

Longbow.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The three versions of slugs from these moulds provide the Pin with the point on it, that yields a hole in the front of the slug for the screw to go thru, the Plug in wad version we are discussing, and the heavy one with a shallow hole in the rear.

Since I have to drill a larger hole to get a #8 screw thru anyway, it occurred to me today to just drill the same hole thru the heavy slug and attach a wad to it. The end result will be around 690 gr! that's slug wad and screw weighed together.

That should be enough for just about anything ? I don't see very many people being able to absorb the recoil from a 700 gr boolit at much over 1100-1200 fps in a 7 lb shotgun. You could always load a few up hot to use as emergency loads if you had to shoot a dinosaur or a hippo or something like a pickup,,, I guess?

The Taofledermaus guys have not shown much aversion to pushing the power envelope, that I have seen.

Randy

[Petander]

Petander. Those like nice and even. PC?

Hi Tek Zombie Green.

I did my usual "Econony Trap Load" test, accuracy was not great but I hope it was me... 40 yards. The right target is 525 Lyman , testing a re-filled "Nobel" trap load. It is grouping to the right...

Attachment 236101.

Paradox "Economy velocity" ~1150 fps.

Attachment 236102

They shoot straight, I can't recover any now but the holes show that the wads stay on.

[longbow]

The wads di stay in even just pushed in by hand. I recovered several slugs and even those that hit rocks or hard pack and mushroomed (some right to the center pin and left pin and wad loose through a hole in the nose!) still had wads attached.

I didn't find accuracy particularly good but the slugs are undersize in my 0.733" bore. In the past I've found that even a couple thou of slop makes for inaccuracy. Sizing right at or a thou over bore size seems to tighten group sup. I have knurled some of the Paradox slugs up past bore diameter then sized back to 0.733"... yet to be shot... still! We got another dump of snow yesterday. I just finished clearing the driveway. We don't have record amounts of snow but we are getting lots right at the end of the season which is unusual. More to come!

Anyway, you might try knurling those Paradox slugs up a bit if they slide easily into your bore. If they are tight then you should be good to go... for fit anyway.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

This is good stuff guys ,,, Thanks for the report.

I guess you Northerners can go out of the house. My knees and legs hurt so bad yesterday I had to get in my car and drive around to warm up. Rain and cold make me hurt.

The heater in the house quit last night until I finally got it to fire up again after about 8PM. The house got down to 57 F!

I had my Mad Bomber Hat on along with heavy shirt jacket and wrapped in Blankies. I was watching Jim Shockey in the Arctic where it is actually cold.


On the more relevant topic. You guys do understand that the same rules that apply to regular cast boolits apply here as well.

With these slugs if they aren't spinning they are Badminton Birdies and the shape of the wad after firing will have a significant influence in the flight path. I see the two best smoothbore slugs as the Lyman Sabot Slug and the Lee Slugs.

I got some AQ slugs from BPI and the tail piece on the .729 slug is flared and goes from .720 to.735 at the rear and is designed to be shot from a smooth bore. The fins on the tail piece are designed to bite on the ID of the barrel and impart some spin. The slug is swaged and is close to perfect. They should fly pretty strait and group well from a smooth bore. The tests I've seen show no improvement in accuracy with a Rifled barrel.

If the slugs are spinning, then the rear edge of the slug becomes the steering end and unless it is perfect or at least consistent the boolit is not going to fly strait. I just scraped a bunch of my Big Slugs because the rear edge was not perfect. Thus from a rifled barrel they were going willy nilly.

Petander; do you have a rifled barrel for your gun?

LB; I know yours is a Smooth Bore.

My Vang Comped 20" M500 shoots Federal Foster Slugs into 2.5-3" at 50 yards and that's shooting offhand. Pretty sure there is more there if shot off a rest. I might go to Mossberg and see if I can get them to cut a 24" rifled barrel down to 18" for my HD gun which would be the walking around gun or possibly a gun to keep in my car in case someone goes off at Walmart when my wife is inside..

The Browning Slug Barrel is smoothbore until the last 2-3" then chokes down to .715 or IC choke. Ithaca did research with their Deerslayer M37's and found a little choke helped to center the slug along the center line of the barrel as it exited. I think Browning followed that idea with their barrels. Both the Browning Slug barrel and the Hastings Rifled barrel are 24" with rifle sights.

The Vang Comp barrel has the same type of thing going from from .745 back bore to .730 at the muzzle.

So as it sits right now I have 3 guns and 4 barrels to test out, as well as a bunch of projectiles.

I also got some wads from BPI that are Gas Seals with a shot cup attached. No cushion. My intention with these is to try to duplicate Federal Flight Control Wads with Buckshot by cutting a window in the sides to create "Drag Flaps" like Federal did.

Lots to do. I have to drive around in my car now to warm up. Its 59F here today.

Randy

[longbow]

Randy:

I bought a box of the old AQ slugs which were more "ball" like than the new ones but looks like the same tail wad. They've added a bore ride bearing section to the slug with the new design but that looks like about the only change.

I got excellent 100 yard accuracy from my Browning BPS with I/C slug barrel. That is one of the "standards" I am trying to match now! And failing! Without much trouble I was getting <6" groups at 100 yards from smoothbore. I only had a box of 25 but they shot well from the first try. And that is from smoothbore with open sights and no pinned or shimmed barrel so pretty good in my opinion. If I could get my home brewed slug loads to shoot as well I'd be a happy camper!

We'll see how these Brenneke'ized Lee slugs do... eventually. Looks like this weekend is out too, though I may get out Monday depending on weather. It was quite mild for here most of the winter then February showed up with a bang! Lots of cold weather and lots of snow. I was out blowing snow at 5:00 am before work yesterday ~ about 3" to 4" overnight which was less than predicted and the same tomorrow then out temperature dips to -12°Cat night and -5°C or so during the day. I don't mind the -5°C at all it is the long walk up the hill to the gun range packing all my gear. That in 2' of snow is no fun! I normally make 3 trips to get all my stuff there but could lighten up and do it in two trips... but not in 2' of snow thanks! We've had more snow but usually it comes earlier in winter. Currently the snow banks beside the driveway are about 5' high. There's about 1 1/2' of snow in our front yard. It snows hard then warms up and starts melting, repeat for the last three weeks!

I'll be interested in how those AQ's shoot for you. I really liked mine.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: What did you use for a Wad Stack under the AQ slugs? I was just going to use a BA12 wad like on the screw on slugs.

Randy

[longbow]

Randy:

I don't recall but most likely just a plastic gas seal under and maybe a nitro card wad or two on top of the gas seal if needed to get crimp height. Back then I would have fold crimped. Now I'd roll crimp.

I was really impressed by the AQ's. I'll be interested in your results.

I have the BPI load data for them if you want it. The old style were 445 grs. IIRC but the weight is stated with load data to double check with new ones.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

T

he Browning Slug Barrel is smoothbore until the last 2-3" then chokes down to .715 or IC choke. Ithaca did research with their Deerslayer M37's and found a little choke helped to center the slug along the center line of the barrel as it exited. I think Browning followed that idea with their barrels. Both the Browning Slug barrel and the Hastings Rifled barrel are 24" with rifle sights.

From what I read, guns shooting lead projectiles often will be more accurate when having a slightly choked/tapered rifling at the muzzle. Some of most accurate modern airguns are smoothbore with only about four inches of rifling at the muzzle. It probably has to do with lead being non-elastic - once swaged down passing a tight spot in the barrel the boolit is no longer fully supported by the rifling. The same thing would happen to a lead slug in a smoothbore which is why I believe slugs with an attached wad is easier to get to shoot well; the wad keeps the slug from wobbling in the barrel.

I have a theory (who hasn't?) that round balls should do well in a wad with tight fitting petals - and when they don't it has to do with the muzzle blast disturbing the launch. One way to test for muzzle blast interference would be to shoot the slugs from my suppressed shotgun where the pressure at the muzzle is greatly reduced. Yet another item on my already too long "To Do" list...

[longbow]

It has been said that some choke is a good thing with smoothbore but so far I've done as well or better using a cylinder bore gun. However, I have not put my Browning BPS into slug service for quite some time. It has a buck & slug barrel with what Browning calls an I/C choke but it mic's 0.710" so a tight I/C.

I bought a 0.715" RB mould for that gun thinking that the I/C choke would stop any barrel induced spin/roll of the ball and center it up but I've been reluctance to shoot them because a solid 0.715" ball at 1400 FPS or so smacking into a 0.710" choke bothers me a bit. 0.005" is not much to swage down and a small "belt" to form but it still bothers me so they have not been shot.

Once I've got some consistent shooting slugs I should do a comparison between the Browning BPS with choke and my Mossberg Slugster with cylinder bore to see if there is a significant difference. I've shimmed the barrel to receiver on the Mossberg so will have to do the same with the Browning to be fair.

The old Paradox guns were mostly smoothbore rifled choke of about 3" and quite a squeeze down too! I am still trying to find out if they used a slow round ball twist as bore guns did or faster twist. I have read both. I contacted H&H and they didn't know the twist! I was told they just use the same tooling as the originals were made with. Ross Seyfried said his Paradox gun has 1:36" twist or maybe 1:38" twist but thereabout... like modern rifled choke tubes. Not sure if he measured it or assumed since I've found nothing definite in print.

The rifled choke tube I have been trying to make for quite some time is 1:72" twist which is fast for round ball but slow compared to modern rifled barrels and rifled choke tubes. I had a set back recently so have to start rifling another choke tube but this time with a scrape type cutter.

interesting you mention muzzle pressure. Something I have maintained for many years is that once of the reasons factory Foster slugs shoot so well (generally anyway) is wad column. The factories can order by the hundreds of thousands exactly what they want and have it consistent very time. To my knowledge most factory Foster slug use a hard or stiff wad column, not cushion leg shotcups. I have to think that give in the wad column and any tipping in the bore or at the muzzle is going to cause deviations in launch. Think about a cushion leg crushing under ball or slug then what happens at the muzzle. If the gas seal is tipped even just a few thou it will affect gas escape at the muzzle causing a tipping moment and I have to think cushion legs are distorted or tipped more than a few thou with 10,000 PSI pushing them! Okay at the muzzle maybe just a couple thousand PSI, but lots for plastic and a cushion leg. The effect would be pretty much the same for smoothbore or rifled gun for the launch just like a bad boolit base.

My best 0.735" RB groups were had using a plastic gas seal then all hard card wads. Groups were much better than using a cushion leg or soft fiber wads in the wad column.

I hear you on the "To Do" list! I've got so many slugs loaded up now I will be punchy for a month after shooting them all. Our weather has been really bad and lots of late wind and snow. I had planned to do some shooting but all I've been doing is casting slugs and reloading.

I'll get some shooting done shortly I hope.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

I want a Suppressed Shotgun.

"No Country for Old Men" comes to mind.

California just tries to take all the fun out of everything they can't directly tax.

Randy