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Thread: 9mm 124 gr anything softer than Clays?

  1. #41
    Boolit Buddy
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    With all due respect I've never had Clays to be as accurate in 9 but it is a great powder for 45 in my experience. Although it shoots soft accuracy pales compared to TG, PP, N320 and my favorite WSF. Try WSF as it can be really soft loaded down.

  2. #42
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    I went back to Clays. I changed primers to a Winchester primer. I have been fairly happy with the results. It was good enough to win a bowling pin match last weekend. As far IDPA goes I actually switched to a 40 s&w 180 gr bullet loaded with Clays. It hits where I aim and I find it very useful to be able to see my hits on the target. I will still use Clays with the 9mm for steel challenge and bowling pins. When I'm done with that I'll use up the rest of the Titewad and E3 I bought to test with

  3. #43
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    Powder does not materially affect recoil. Look at the formula for recoil energy. Recoil is governed by bullet speed, bullet weight, gun weight, and lastly....and to a very minor extent with pistols...ejecta. Ejecta is the gas volume exiting the barrel.

    Powder can affect muzzle blast and a louder report will make you think there is more recoil.

    This stuff about soft shooting powders is an old wives tale that permeates the ranks of pistol and shotgun shooters.

    If if it is legal in your competition, and you need to achieve a certain power factor, adding weight to your gun will reduce recoil. If power factor is not a requirement, changing springs and dialing down the load is doable. A good set of grips can help perceived recoil.
    Don Verna


  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Powder does not materially affect recoil. Look at the formula for recoil energy. Recoil is governed by bullet speed, bullet weight, gun weight, and lastly....and to a very minor extent with pistols...ejecta. Ejecta is the gas volume exiting the barrel.

    Powder can affect muzzle blast and a louder report will make you think there is more recoil.

    This stuff about soft shooting powders is an old wives tale that permeates the ranks of pistol and shotgun shooters.

    If if it is legal in your competition, and you need to achieve a certain power factor, adding weight to your gun will reduce recoil. If power factor is not a requirement, changing springs and dialing down the load is doable. A good set of grips can help perceived recoil.
    Objectively, recoil is just momentum and momentum is conserved, so it can be calculated. Subjectively though, I suspect that what people consider recoil is more of a first derivative of momentum -- momentum over time (i.e. "impulse"). Given two powders that generate the same muzzle velocity, the one that give the projectile a constant acceleration is going be be judged as having less "recoil" as compared to a powder that accelerates the projectile more quickly at the beginning than at the end.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyVet1959 View Post
    Objectively, recoil is just momentum and momentum is conserved, so it can be calculated. Subjectively though, I suspect that what people consider recoil is more of a first derivative of momentum -- momentum over time (i.e. "impulse"). Given two powders that generate the same muzzle velocity, the one that give the projectile a constant acceleration is going be be judged as having less "recoil" as compared to a powder that accelerates the projectile more quickly at the beginning than at the end.
    The pressure curve is going to factor into the felt recoil. Granted this all takes place of milliseconds. But a fast burning powder that spikes quickly is going to feel different than a slow burner w/ a more progressive curve. This equates to a slow push versus snappy.

    You can have two powders that give you the exact same velocity w/ everything else being the same. And the perceived recoil will be different. I don't think it's an old wives tale. Everyone will perceive things differently.

  6. #46
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    The time that such an impulse occurs is milliseconds and the human body cannot discern that small slice of time. I believe the body can detect 1/10 of a second...but I would need to look it up to be certain.

    There was a blind test done by Neil Winston (past president of the ATA) years ago using shotgun loads with a very fast powder vs a very slow powder. The testers could not determine which powder gave more recoil.

    Recoil pads work because they extend the impulse/recoil over fractions of a second...not milliseconds. That period of time, the body can discern.

    I select powders for shotgun loads based on patterns and cost. I have a Rad system on the K-80 to tame recoil because I am recoil sensitive...if powder mattered, I would use a slower powder...but it does not. In the pistols, I factor in accuracy, velocity, and how clean it burns. Generally the faster powders, will not give maximum velocity but burn cleaner and are slightly more economical; so they get the nod for target plinking loads. If trying for full power loads then the only criteria are accuracy and velocity.

    If I want a "soft" load in any gun, I generally work with bullet weight and velocity. I have a muzzle break on the .300 Mag because it hurts to shoot it. And I have added weight to shotguns and rifles.

    But in the end, if someone believes it matters, it matters. For most, perception is reality but it may not be the truth.
    Don Verna


  7. #47
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Myself I have played with a few different powders in pistol. For sheer ease of use, easy on the wallet, and ability to stock one powder to shoot everything I keep coming back to Red Dot. It has simply worked well for me across the board. But I don't demand top performance. Expectations and personal preference are a bit part of this IMO.

    Titewad smelled different but I could not feel a difference.

    Universal I could feel no difference.

    I can feel a difference between 3 grains of Red Dot and 4 or over in 9mm. In .45 acp I started at 5 I think and backed down until I saw soot. Pretty sure I am at 4 grains and happy there.

    But I am a rank newb when it comes to pistol and I bow to others vastly larger pool of experience.

  8. #48
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    Has anyone actually gotten stellar accuracy from the bullet in question by the OP? I have searched but haven't really found anyone that has gotten much more than plinking accuracy from the 124 TC TL bullet out a 6 cavity mold. I don't think the bullets are consistent enough from cavity to cavity and they are already a bit small. I think I'd try casting 100 bullets from the same cavity (largest one) and see what happens with accuracy. Maybe even weigh each of those to sure there aren't any internal voids. Just a thought.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by arlon View Post
    Has anyone actually gotten stellar accuracy from the bullet in question by the OP? I have searched but haven't really found anyone that has gotten much more than plinking accuracy from the 124 TC TL bullet out a 6 cavity mold. I don't think the bullets are consistent enough from cavity to cavity and they are already a bit small. I think I'd try casting 100 bullets from the same cavity (largest one) and see what happens with accuracy. Maybe even weigh each of those to sure there aren't any internal voids. Just a thought.
    What do you consider stellar accuracy? I think they're good enough for most shooting applications. I wouldn't try to shoot bullseye with them but have done decent in competition. Undersized? They weigh more than 124 grs and they aren't leading my barrels. Does that mean they aren't undersized at all? I guess I'm into casting for bullets. I don't have the time to really appreciate the art form of it. I'm not going to cast 100 bullets from one cavity without casting 600 in all. I do realize that these 6 cavity molds are hit or miss. But I cast for the savings and so I can shoot more

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Powder does not materially affect recoil. Look at the formula for recoil energy. Recoil is governed by bullet speed, bullet weight, gun weight, and lastly....and to a very minor extent with pistols...ejecta. Ejecta is the gas volume exiting the barrel.

    Powder can affect muzzle blast and a louder report will make you think there is more recoil.

    This stuff about soft shooting powders is an old wives tale that permeates the ranks of pistol and shotgun shooters.

    If if it is legal in your competition, and you need to achieve a certain power factor, adding weight to your gun will reduce recoil. If power factor is not a requirement, changing springs and dialing down the load is doable. A good set of grips can help perceived recoil.
    I can feel the difference in powders and some charge weights. I shoot with a can once in awhile too, where the muzzle blast and report don't really have an effect on recoil perception

  11. #51
    Boolit Buddy Low Budget Shooter's Avatar
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    My most accurate 9mm loads have been with Bullseye. I shot quite a few rounds with that and with the same bullet over other powders, and the accuracy of Bullseye was evident. I used the minimum load listed in the Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, and had to bump it up just about .1 grain, then had consistent function and very good accuracy. But then I guess after all these years, no one would be surprised that Bullseye produced an accurate load!

  12. #52
    Boolit Master rsrocket1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Powder does not materially affect recoil. Look at the formula for recoil energy. Recoil is governed by bullet speed, bullet weight, gun weight, and lastly....and to a very minor extent with pistols...ejecta. Ejecta is the gas volume exiting the barrel.

    Powder can affect muzzle blast and a louder report will make you think there is more recoil.

    This stuff about soft shooting powders is an old wives tale that permeates the ranks of pistol and shotgun shooters.
    .
    Up until recently, I would have sworn by that statement. However, I was trying some loads with BE-86. I thought that 5.6g under a 180g lead PC bullet ought to have given me mid-Unique (5.0g) velocities of about 900-950 fps. When I shot them, I thought the bullets were going considerably slower because the recoil felt a lot lighter so I loaded up test rounds at 5.6g, 6.0g and 6.4g and went back out to chrony them. I was shocked to see that the 5.6g loads averaged 1004 fps over 20 shots. The 6.0g loads averaged 1015 fps and the 6.4g loads averaged 1042 fps. I have no need for super fast target loads so my standard load for 40 will be 5.3g.

    When I tested the same 5.6g loads in 9mm, I thought I would be shooting around my ideal speeds of 1100 fps. Again I was surprised to see than the MV's were over 1225 fps out of a 92fs and only 10 fps slower out of the 4.25" M&P. With 9mm, I can't tell if the recoil is significantly lighter or not because 9mm is all light to me.

    Now maybe the impulse is spread out over a longer period of time but the bullet time in a 4.25" barrel is only about 6.5ms so maybe it's just a slightly slower acceleration that gives it a slightly softer initial pulse. I know that with a gas operated shotgun or rifle, the impulse is the same, it's the spreading out over time that makes it "feel" softer.

    A light charge with a super fast powder like Titewad, Titegroup, Clays, Extra-Lite, E3, Clay Dot would give a very fast impulse, but the overall recoil would be low because of the low bullet speed and lower exit pressure at the muzzle compared to a larger charge of a slower powder.

    As for figuring out the lowest recoil load you can get, use one of the really fast powders and work down until you start failing to lock the slide back on the last shot, then bump the charge back up a couple of tenths. If you chrony that load, it should translate to most other powders. Just try to match the MV of your lightest reliable operating load.

  13. #53
    Boolit Master NoAngel's Avatar
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    The softest felt recoil of ANY load I have ever worked up in 9mm was with Accurate Nitro100NF.
    3.0g under a Lee 124g bullet cycles my Glock 19 100% and locks open on the last shot but the brass will often bounce off my right hand. I'm using a Lone Wolf cut rifled barrel and at 12 yards, two or three magazines full leaves a ragged hole smaller than my fist. That's impressive to me because I simply cannot shoot a handgun with any modicum of accuracy.
    When dealing with islam one should always ask themselves: "What would Leonidas do?"

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by SdRemmy View Post
    I went back to Clays. I changed primers to a Winchester primer. I have been fairly happy with the results. It was good enough to win a bowling pin match last weekend. As far IDPA goes I actually switched to a 40 s&w 180 gr bullet loaded with Clays. It hits where I aim and I find it very useful to be able to see my hits on the target. I will still use Clays with the 9mm for steel challenge and bowling pins. When I'm done with that I'll use up the rest of the Titewad and E3 I bought to test with
    I'm in a similar situation. I'm down to a pound of Titegroup and wondering if I shouldn't be working on a way to clean up 3# of Clays and 8# of ClayDot leftover from Single Stack?

    I'm out of the .45 biz now, shooting Production (G34) and PCC in USPSA. To further complicate, I shoot a G43 in a MicoCarry division at a local steel match.

    I'm looking to work up a Clay's load for a 140gr cast PC'd boolit.

  15. #55
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwframe View Post
    I'm in a similar situation. I'm down to a pound of Titegroup and wondering if I shouldn't be working on a way to clean up 3# of Clays and 8# of ClayDot leftover from Single Stack?

    I'm out of the .45 biz now, shooting Production (G34) and PCC in USPSA. To further complicate, I shoot a G43 in a MicoCarry division at a local steel match.

    I'm looking to work up a Clay's load for a 140gr cast PC'd boolit.
    I think you'd be happy with those powders

  16. #56
    Moderator Emeritus robertbank's Avatar
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    I use 4.1 gr 231 under my 356402 TC Lyman bullet with good results for IDPA. PF runs to 135ish over my Chrony.

    Another powder I use more for practice is 700X. 3.4 gr works really well with Standard Deviations 8 or under when shot in group of 10 over my Chrony usig the same 124 gr bullet. Generates a bit more smoke than some but seems to burn clean.

    Take Care

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check