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Thread: Bolt Lock Up M39 twice!

  1. #1

    Bolt Lock Up M39 twice!

    Hello

    25.0 Gr of 5744 works great with 311466 GC sized .309 in my M39's and Finn Tikka M91.

    Same load with 200 Grain .308 R4 and .310 170 311291 Powder Coated with AL GC DID NOT.

    Pierced primer with first shot in m39 with the 291 and blew the rim off the bolt face, locked up bolt.


    R4 locked up other m39. I cleared inspected and shot 20 ea, Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	186001311466, as well as PPV 180 jacketed commercial, some 168 Nosler .308 and 174 SMK both with RL15.

    Not sure what is going on. I pulled down all 9 rounds of 291 and one R4, powder was right on. Double charge overflows case.

    Any thoughts on this? Thanks

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Have you already checked the heads pace?

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
    Yodogsandman's Avatar
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    TOO MUCH PRESSURE!!! Get a loading manual. Read it. A load for one boolit isn't alright for another. You can't just jump up in boolit weight and use the same amount of powder. My manual shows that you're 3.0 gr over the START load for 5744!

    A deplorable that votes!

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by mcdaniel.mac View Post
    Have you already checked the heads pace?
    No have not.
    But..matching number Finns. Shot many times in past. I will check HS now. Thanks

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Yodogsandman View Post
    TOO MUCH PRESSURE!!! Get a loading manual. Read it. A load for one boolit isn't alright for another. You can't just jump up in boolit weight and use the same amount of powder. My manual shows that you're 3.0 gr over the START load for 5744!

    7.62X54R. Before I loaded I checked Lyman 49 and 50. Lee Manual, and Western. See loads from Western below. Note that the 466 and 291 are same weight bullets. The R4 is sized 308. I have shot several hundred of the 311466 loads. Thanks though.
    Caliber: 7.62x54R – Russian Nagant.

    Barrel length: 24” REDUCED LOADS: Powder: Accurate -- 5744.
    Bullet weight: 160 grains Low load: 23.5 grains (ca 1800 Fps)
    Midrange load: 28.5 grains (ca 2100 Fps)
    Maximum load: 34.0grains (ca 2375 Fps)

    Bullet weight: 174 grains
    Low load: 24.5 grains (1700 – 1800 Fps)
    Midrange load: 29.8 grains (2000 – 2075 Fps)
    Maximum load: 35.0grains (2200 – 2300 Fps)

    Bullet weight: 180 grains
    Low load: 23.8 grains (1650 – 1750 Fps)
    Midrange load: 28.9 grains (1950 – 2000 Fps)
    Maximum load: 34.0grains (2150 – 2250 Fps)

    Bullet weight: 200 grains
    Low load: 22.4 grains (1550 – 1625 Fps)
    Midrange load: 27.2 grains (1800 – 1900 Fps)
    Maximum load: 32.0grains (1975 – 2050 Fps)

    NOTES: It’ important to note that SAFETY is our prime concern therefore we strongly recommend. 1. ALWAYS BEGIN LOADING AT THE RECOMMENDED MINIMUM “START” LOAD and develop loads in 2% increments towards the MAXIMUM load. 2. Caution re A-5744: Take care that double charging does not occur! Especially at low load levels. 3. If possible, measure the velocity and correlate with our data.

  6. #6
    Boolit Man
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    Looked at astro's data after I posted mine.

    Get a good look at those bores before someone cleans them. One of your loads could have leaded up the bore before you shot the higher pressure load.

    Borescope.

    And headspace is highly unlikely to be equal in both rifles. Now you should inspect for possible bolt lug setback while you're at it.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by astroturf3040 View Post
    7.62X54R. Before I loaded I checked Lyman 49 and 50. Lee Manual, and Western. See loads from Western below. Note that the 466 and 291 are same weight bullets. The R4 is sized 308. I have shot several hundred of the 311466 loads. Thanks though.
    Caliber: 7.62x54R – Russian Nagant.

    Barrel length: 24” REDUCED LOADS: Powder: Accurate -- 5744.
    Bullet weight: 160 grains Low load: 23.5 grains (ca 1800 Fps)
    Midrange load: 28.5 grains (ca 2100 Fps)
    Maximum load: 34.0grains (ca 2375 Fps)

    Bullet weight: 174 grains
    Low load: 24.5 grains (1700 – 1800 Fps)
    Midrange load: 29.8 grains (2000 – 2075 Fps)
    Maximum load: 35.0grains (2200 – 2300 Fps)

    Bullet weight: 180 grains
    Low load: 23.8 grains (1650 – 1750 Fps)
    Midrange load: 28.9 grains (1950 – 2000 Fps)
    Maximum load: 34.0grains (2150 – 2250 Fps)

    Bullet weight: 200 grains
    Low load: 22.4 grains (1550 – 1625 Fps)
    Midrange load: 27.2 grains (1800 – 1900 Fps)
    Maximum load: 32.0grains (1975 – 2050 Fps)

    NOTES: It’ important to note that SAFETY is our prime concern therefore we strongly recommend. 1. ALWAYS BEGIN LOADING AT THE RECOMMENDED MINIMUM “START” LOAD and develop loads in 2% increments towards the MAXIMUM load. 2. Caution re A-5744: Take care that double charging does not occur! Especially at low load levels. 3. If possible, measure the velocity and correlate with our data.
    I should have been more clear, I meant the 200 gr load. "Same load with 200 Grain .308 R4" this, according to your Western data is 2.6 gr over the START load.

    Your Western Powder data doesn't say whether for cast or jacketed, it just says reduced loads.

    My Lyman 49 says to START with 20.0 gr 5744 for a 200gr Lyman 311299. You are 5.0 gr over the START load according to Lyman 49.
    I don't have the Lee or Lyman 50.

    You just can't use any data you want or figure what load you want to START at.

    Why would you continue to shoot your remaining ammo at the range after having a rim blow off?

    You were lucky this time.
    A deplorable that votes!

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by astroturf3040 View Post
    No have not.
    But..matching number Finns. Shot many times in past. I will check HS now. Thanks
    If it's been fine in the past and the bolt wasn't disassembled then it's probably not headspace or firing pin protrusion, but I have seen it happen once with a Finn'd 91/30. It was fine with surplus, but blew a couple commercial primers.

    If the bolt and firing pin protrusion is fine, then I'd have to say that looks like a pressure issue!

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    runfiverun's Avatar
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    western was turned into accurate powder which is now ramshot.
    I'm trying to remember.
    but airc they [western] used to just sell [or sold a lot of] data powder [which wasn't exactly the same as their canister powder] and we know how that can go.
    I would double check the data against current data as a starter.
    and check your speed against their speed with a chronograph, if your close or over your running hot.
    printed data is generally faster than real world speeds.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  10. #10
    Boolit Master Maven's Avatar
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    Question

    astro...., Yodogsandman's advice is excellent and should be heeded! In addition, 5744 is a faster burning propellant than say, IMR 4198 and therefore should be treated accordingly. E.g., in my M-39 (Sako), I used no more than 21.0gr. 5744 or 24.0gr. IMR 4198 with Lyman #314299 (203gr.) sized to .312" and have never had a problem with pressure or accuracy. Lastly, and this just occurred to me, have you checked your firing pin for protrusion and sharpness, as that may be contributing to your difficulties.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    I would have stopped when I pierced a primer. How many times has the brass been fired, full length resized pushing the shoulder back too far, neck too long pinching in the throat, pockets loose?
    Hell, I was there!

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    western was turned into accurate powder which is now ramshot.
    I'm trying to remember.
    but airc they [western] used to just sell [or sold a lot of] data powder [which wasn't exactly the same as their canister powder] and we know how that can go.
    I would double check the data against current data as a starter.
    and check your speed against their speed with a chronograph, if your close or over your running hot.
    printed data is generally faster than real world speeds.
    I believe they started life as the Roundup Powder Company, INC, Miles City, MT, 406-232-1632 and were a distributor for Accurate powder. They changed their name to Western Powder and sold Ramshot powder, now they own Accurate and sell both Ramshot and Accurate powders.
    Hell, I was there!

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Here is data from Accurate Manual #2, page 286

    7.62x54R Russian
    180 GR lead RN/GC
    5744 start 25.2 gr-1873 fps, 28.0 gr 2129 fps 35.2 k PSI- 2.830" OAL 311-467 mold.
    Hell, I was there!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by swheeler View Post
    Here is data from Accurate Manual #2, page 286

    7.62x54R Russian
    180 GR lead RN/GC
    5744 start 25.2 gr-1873 fps, 28.0 gr 2129 fps 35.2 k PSI- 2.830" OAL 311-467 mold.
    That's about it then...essentially same load. Thanks

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Maven View Post
    astro...., Yodogsandman's advice is excellent and should be heeded! In addition, 5744 is a faster burning propellant than say, IMR 4198 and therefore should be treated accordingly. E.g., in my M-39 (Sako), I used no more than 21.0gr. 5744 or 24.0gr. IMR 4198 with Lyman #314299 (203gr.) sized to .312" and have never had a problem with pressure or accuracy. Lastly, and this just occurred to me, have you checked your firing pin for protrusion and sharpness, as that may be contributing to your difficulties.
    Thanks. The R4 is sized .309.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by jsn View Post
    Get a good look at those bores before someone cleans them. One of your loads could have leaded up the bore before you shot the higher pressure load.

    Borescope.

    And headspace is highly unlikely to be equal in both rifles. Now you should inspect for possible bolt lug setback while you're at it.
    Will check HS. Both guns had clean scrubbed bores.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by mcdaniel.mac View Post
    If it's been fine in the past and the bolt wasn't disassembled then it's probably not headspace or firing pin protrusion, but I have seen it happen once with a Finn'd 91/30. It was fine with surplus, but blew a couple commercial primers.

    If the bolt and firing pin protrusion is fine, then I'd have to say that looks like a pressure issue!
    FPT is next check. Thanks

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    thank's Scott.
    the data might be the same but the powder might not be was my point.

    and even if it is the same, a sudden sticky bolt handle is a sign of high pressure with your load.
    especially if other ammo works like it should.

    if you had an issue with other stuff or just blank cases it could be an issue with the rifle itself.
    I have one rifle that has an issue with the extractor jamming up, if I change bolts it goes away.
    if I change the extractor the issue goes away.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    I just went to the cabinet and looked, my newer 5744 says made in Canada, newer 4350 says made in Canada and older 3100 does not say where it is made. I could be wrong but believe the older 5744 I had said made in Israel, so load data may have changed some? All no longer use a prefix, used to be MP5744 and MR3100.
    Hell, I was there!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by swheeler View Post
    I would have stopped when I pierced a primer. How many times has the brass been fired, full length resized pushing the shoulder back too far, neck too long pinching in the throat, pockets loose?
    Yes. Quit. Pulled all bullets and dumped and weighed each charge.
    Once fired, FL sized, shoulder not pushed back, pockets tight by feel on the Lee primer seater, do not know on the neck. Thanks!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check