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Thread: BB rifles for hunting and hand pumpers as well as tank use .

  1. #21
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    jcwit's Avatar
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    Think as you wish.

    But remember, is it a mag, or is it a clip? A gun or a rifle/shotgun/ handgun/pistol/revolver/air rifle/Daisy BB gun/and onand on and on! Do we have a bough or a bow? A crick or a creek?

    Guess you folks have just started a whole new vocabulary. You might somewhere with the young set, but the old timers will not change!

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
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    In part confusion may arise due to the fact that the vast majority of members of this site are more firearms oriented and the initials "BB defined as 177 steel shot or .18 lead shot and AR meaning Auto Rifle (and more recently rifles based on the Armalite Rifle), have been in common use for over a century.
    The earlier large bore air guns were never given any such designation as BB guns, and there are early examples of air guns of .70 caliber and up.

    Even the panel of air gun enthusiasts in that video were not in complete agreement as to what constituted a "Big Bore" airgun.

    Personally I think of air guns as either "small bore" (.177, .20, .22, and . 25, though a very few 6mm and 7mm airguns are out there) ( The .12 and .118 caliber guns are rare and long obsolete) or "large bore" of .30 and up. Since the term "BB" has already been taken and has very deep historical roots when it comes to airguns perhaps the term "LB" for "Large Bore" would be a better choice to avoid confusion. A further refinement would be "LBAR" for "Large Bore Air Rifle" , more descriptive and far less likely to be mistaken for anything else.

    The largest game animals that the large bore air guns firing heavy conical bullets would be suited to are at best medium game even if someone somehow manages to drop a truly large animal with a well placed shot its highly unlikely that the average hunter could take anything heavier than a Deer with even the best large bore airguns available at this time.
    The energy level of the hottest available large bore airgun is a hair more than that of a .45 ACP pistol, not something you'd want to trust your life to on a Brown Bear hunt though fair sized bear have been dropped with a well placed pistol shot in the past.

    The most deadly of the early air rifles was the Girandoni repeating air gun of IIRC .43 caliber, it had aprox the equivalent power to a .38 Special +P pistol round. The quick change air canister/butt stock held enough high pressure air for up to 30 shots, the first ten were judged to be deadly at a range of 120 yards, the second string of ten deadly at 80 yards, and the last thirty shots deadly at closer ranges. I remember this from an old NRA test run on an original still in shooting condition. In one test firing the ball penetrated a steel helmet of the type worn by some mounted troops of the 18th century at over one hundred yards.
    The pump used to fill the canisters , three per rifle, was similar to the Hill high pressure pump which is commonly used today, with a screw threaded tip for mounting it securely in a tree trunk so the man doing the pumping could lean into it with his whole body and legs behind the trust. These air canisters unfortunately were often not up to the task and on occasion exploded injuring the man doing the pumping. The problem was traced to substandard sheet iron used in mass production. The original cylinders were very strongly constructed and safe, but each of those was carefully made by a skilled craftsman and of the finest materials.

    Since the father of a schoolmate was killed by an exploding split rim truck tire in his garage I have had a healthy respect for the power of compressed air. That's why I suggested smaller slimmer quick change cylinders mounted inside a sturdy shell inside the butt stock with vents in case of a catastrophic failure of the cylinder. Some present day large bore airguns like the Texan use the air cylinder itself as the butt stock just as the Girandoni rifles did.
    Of course modern materials are extremely strong, but I've also seen a Scuba tank that had burst wide open in a dive shop. The shop owner hung it on the wall as a reminder of what could happen if the tanks were not kept cooled down while filling them from a compressor.

    There's a youtube video of a guy shooting at some older and beat up carbon fiber reinforced air tanks. One when hit ripped loose from the rack it was hanging from and launched itself at high speed across the field coming fairly close to the camera.
    In a Myth Busters test they broke the valve off a large capacity compressed air cylinder laying on a floor and it punched its way neatly through a cinder block wall like a cannon shot.

    BTW
    I recent saw a video on a nice looking compact PCP pistol considered suited to small game hunting. Its a revolver with a rather small capacity tank mounted under the barrel. I think there's just enough air in the tank for about thirty shots at full power. its built in regulator keeps the velocity deviations very low from first to last shot.
    The gun could be made much more powerful for the first few shots, but without the regulator velocity deviations would be very high and accuracy would suffer. A larger tank is not a viable option for this pistol.
    Some PCP pistols have rather bulky tanks that attach to the bottom of the grip, which allows more shots per fill but makes the gun a bit unwieldy and practically imposable to carry in a holster with any level of comfort.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master melloairman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Multigunner View Post
    In part confusion may arise due to the fact that the vast majority of members of this site are more firearms oriented and the initials "BB defined as 177 steel shot or .18 lead shot and AR meaning Auto Rifle (and more recently rifles based on the Armalite Rifle), have been in common use for over a century.
    The earlier large bore air guns were never given any such designation as BB guns, and there are early examples of air guns of .70 caliber and up.

    Even the panel of air gun enthusiasts in that video were not in complete agreement as to what constituted a "Big Bore" airgun.

    Personally I think of air guns as either "small bore" (.177, .20, .22, and . 25, though a very few 6mm and 7mm airguns are out there) ( The .12 and .118 caliber guns are rare and long obsolete) or "large bore" of .30 and up. Since the term "BB" has already been taken and has very deep historical roots when it comes to airguns perhaps the term "LB" for "Large Bore" would be a better choice to avoid confusion. A further refinement would be "LBAR" for "Large Bore Air Rifle" , more descriptive and far less likely to be mistaken for anything else.

    The largest game animals that the large bore air guns firing heavy conical bullets would be suited to are at best medium game even if someone somehow manages to drop a truly large animal with a well placed shot its highly unlikely that the average hunter could take anything heavier than a Deer with even the best large bore airguns available at this time.
    The energy level of the hottest available large bore airgun is a hair more than that of a .45 ACP pistol, not something you'd want to trust your life to on a Brown Bear hunt though fair sized bear have been dropped with a well placed pistol shot in the past.

    The most deadly of the early air rifles was the Girandoni repeating air gun of IIRC .43 caliber, it had aprox the equivalent power to a .38 Special +P pistol round. The quick change air canister/butt stock held enough high pressure air for up to 30 shots, the first ten were judged to be deadly at a range of 120 yards, the second string of ten deadly at 80 yards, and the last thirty shots deadly at closer ranges. I remember this from an old NRA test run on an original still in shooting condition. In one test firing the ball penetrated a steel helmet of the type worn by some mounted troops of the 18th century at over one hundred yards.
    The pump used to fill the canisters , three per rifle, was similar to the Hill high pressure pump which is commonly used today, with a screw threaded tip for mounting it securely in a tree trunk so the man doing the pumping could lean into it with his whole body and legs behind the trust. These air canisters unfortunately were often not up to the task and on occasion exploded injuring the man doing the pumping. The problem was traced to substandard sheet iron used in mass production. The original cylinders were very strongly constructed and safe, but each of those was carefully made by a skilled craftsman and of the finest materials.

    Since the father of a schoolmate was killed by an exploding split rim truck tire in his garage I have had a healthy respect for the power of compressed air. That's why I suggested smaller slimmer quick change cylinders mounted inside a sturdy shell inside the butt stock with vents in case of a catastrophic failure of the cylinder. Some present day large bore airguns like the Texan use the air cylinder itself as the butt stock just as the Girandoni rifles did.
    Of course modern materials are extremely strong, but I've also seen a Scuba tank that had burst wide open in a dive shop. The shop owner hung it on the wall as a reminder of what could happen if the tanks were not kept cooled down while filling them from a compressor.

    There's a youtube video of a guy shooting at some older and beat up carbon fiber reinforced air tanks. One when hit ripped loose from the rack it was hanging from and launched itself at high speed across the field coming fairly close to the camera.
    In a Myth Busters test they broke the valve off a large capacity compressed air cylinder laying on a floor and it punched its way neatly through a cinder block wall like a cannon shot.

    BTW
    I recent saw a video on a nice looking compact PCP pistol considered suited to small game hunting. Its a revolver with a rather small capacity tank mounted under the barrel. I think there's just enough air in the tank for about thirty shots at full power. its built in regulator keeps the velocity deviations very low from first to last shot.
    The gun could be made much more powerful for the first few shots, but without the regulator velocity deviations would be very high and accuracy would suffer. A larger tank is not a viable option for this pistol.
    Some PCP pistols have rather bulky tanks that attach to the bottom of the grip, which allows more shots per fill but makes the gun a bit unwieldy and practically imposable to carry in a holster with any level of comfort.
    Things are changing with AR . So it is hard to keep with energy levels . This one is up there .Marvin
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAjZ8GYdqx8

  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    very interesting rifle in that video.
    I wonder if Helium charged rifles are still considered air guns?
    CO2 powered guns are usually lumped in with the air guns that use pressurized air so I suppose so.

    Relying on precharged containers of gases such as CO2 or Helium do pose a potential problem, the supply of either could be cut off by regulations. It would be easier to make your own gunpowder and caps than to manufacture your own purified gases. Generating Hydrogen is fairly easy, but manufacture of Helium is not so straight forwards.

    Use of high pressure Helium does appear to allow both much greater power and more compact gas reservoirs. These could rival firearms in power for barrel length.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master melloairman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Multigunner View Post
    very interesting rifle in that video.
    I wonder if Helium charged rifles are still considered air guns?
    CO2 powered guns are usually lumped in with the air guns that use pressurized air so I suppose so.

    Relying on precharged containers of gases such as CO2 or Helium do pose a potential problem, the supply of either could be cut off by regulations. It would be easier to make your own gunpowder and caps than to manufacture your own purified gases. Generating Hydrogen is fairly easy, but manufacture of Helium is not so straight forwards.

    Use of high pressure Helium does appear to allow both much greater power and more compact gas reservoirs. These could rival firearms in power for barrel length.
    I started this thread to show that a low volume BB was available for a hunter . Not to see if AR were better than PB . Yes helium AR are still considered AR . But do not take my word for it . Please check out the site listed here . This producer keeps build quality to were leakage is not a problem . And states his rifles will work on both gases . You also stated that bear should not be hunted with a AR . in a earlier post . If hunters use bows then why not a AR . Scroll down the home page on this site and view the pictures as well . Marvin
    http://www.extremebigboreairrifles.com/

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    Brown Bear are a bit tougher than I'd want to try taking down with the Large caliber air guns that are at present available. As I said few of these have more muzzle energy and penetration than a large caliber pistol.

    There are some very powerful bows these days but I remember and Indian hunter being quoted as saying that no American Indian ever killed a Grizzly till the introduction of firearms by the Whites.
    The Last member of the California Yani tribe and a highly skilled archer stated that when faced by a Grizzly the only way they could be brought down with bows was for the entire hunting party to fire volley after volley at as long a range as possible. Of course they had no magnum handguns or rifles at hand to take up the slack if they missed a vital spot.
    Old Moses had more than one hundred healed over bullet wounds in his body before being taken down by more than two magazines of 30-40 Krag and if not for one of the first shots clipping his spine he would have added the hunter to the dozens of other professional hunters he had killed. He even had two 38-55 slugs buried in his brain and long healed over.
    Nope you won't see me trusting my life to either bow and arrow or airgun when it comes to animals that can eat you for supper.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master melloairman's Avatar
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    A new under $ 700 BB low volume fill multi gas AR . AT 2017 shot show. Marvin
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS1l...em-uploademail

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    Very nice. But it raises the question of regulations on 'fixed ammunition".

    I think my basic idea was better in the long run.

    The technology to produce quick change small capacity high pressure canisters is certainly here.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by melloairman View Post
    A new under $ 700 BB low volume fill multi gas AR . AT 2017 shot show. Marvin
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS1l...em-uploademail
    Nowhere did they describe these as AR guns or BB guns. LOL

  10. #30
    Boolit Master

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    Actually AR stands for Armalite Rifle.
    A gun is like a parachute: If you need one and don't have one, you won't be needing one again.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master melloairman's Avatar
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    Found this clip on the rolling block . Lots of info . Marvin
    https://video.search.yahoo.com/searc...6&action=click

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    The Modoc looks to be a very nicely done redesign of an old classic single shot action to handle these air cartridges. Looks to be very well made as well.

    The air cartridge it uses seems to be an evolutionary step of the Brocock air cartridge.

    looking over some valve parts in my bin the other night I let my imagination take wing and came up with a simple air rifle design that would use the same parts coupled with the butt stock enclosed HPA cylinder I mentioned. The first thing that came to mind was the Civil War era Warner Carbine.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7lIjY-UYZU

    The breech block would look the same externally but most of its length would only serve as a cover for the valve body.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master melloairman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melloairman View Post
    Found this clip on the rolling block . Lots of info . Marvin
    https://video.search.yahoo.com/searc...6&action=click
    Found some info on the company that makes the rifle . They make PB rolling blocks as well if you check out their product line .Marvin
    http://tippmannarmory.com/index.html

  14. #34
    Boolit Master melloairman's Avatar
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    Here is a man that hunts with a BB and uses a hand pump . Uses a BB with arrows in the first part and slugs in the second . He speaks about controversy in the second part as well .Marvin
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl5F65ALB3I
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDdA...BvkxMjAyMjAxNw

  15. #35
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    The discussion of PCP and gas powered guns brought to mind the prop trank rifle used on the old sci fi TV series "Voyage to the bottom of the sea".
    That air gun, if it in fact was an operational air gun, was built from a No.5 Enfield carbine.
    A large air or gas tank was fitted to an aluminum valve body that was fitted into the magazine well. No fore end was present, though some had vertical fore grips that may have come from the STEN Mark 5 SMG.
    All metal was chrome or nickel plated.

    The basic idea was sound. The detachable bolt head of the Enfield could be replaced with one that had a probe with O-ring seal. The valve could be tripped by an extension of the cocking piece. The stroke of the bolt would allow use of darts of three inches in length, perhaps longer.
    The barrel, which had the No.5 flash hider and sight painted red or orange as airsoft muzzles are today, seemed to be a straight tube of possibly .50 bore.

    The cylinder for these looked to be the helium tank once used with deep sea scuba gear to add helium to the breathing mixture to replace nitrogen in the blood preventing nitrogen narcosis and the bends.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check