Harbor Freight Red Powder Coat for RCBS-165-Sil - Shooting Results

[MUSTANG]

A few years ago I did some initial testing of Powder Coating on cast boolits. Results of shooting test at that time was poor so I decided to abandon the effort for a time. Off and on I've followed the various threads on PC efforts, it seemed that there is a lot of focus on the technical aspects of applications and selections of products, but publishing actual results on paper is less so (with the exception of a few specific Forum members).

For this thread my efforts will be restricted to the RCBS 165 Sil boolit only. I had been following Bama's efforts in his thread: ACCURATE PC 350 Yds part 1. In that thread Bama focused on Nose sizing and other areas striving for a more concentric and accurate PC'd boolit. My efforts have not been as promising, but a start and some interesting data points.

All the following used Air Cooled RCBS 165 Cast boolits with a BHN of 9.8, cast from 96% lead, 3% antimony, and 1% Tin. Gas ch ecks were made from Ameri-max Aluminum flashing using a Pat Marlin GC die. Rifle is a Remington 700 Heavy Barrel Varmint in .308 Winchester. All testing Targets are at 100 Yards.


Group #1:

Boolit was used as cast. Gas Check was applied before HF Red Powder Coat was applied using shake and bake, one coat cured in oven at 400° temp for 30 Minutes, then Air Cooled. Sized to .310 in push through die. Nose measured ~ .304. Load was 45 Grains W760 in .308 Winchester. Group size for 8 shots was 2.481 MOA.

Attachment 185621



Group #2:

Boolit Nose was sized to .300 using an NOE nose sizer die. Gas Check was applied before HF Red Powder Coat was applied using shake and bake, one coat cured in oven at 400° temp for 30 Minutes, then Air Cooled. Sized to .310 in push through die. Nose measured .300. Load was 45 Grains W760 in .308 Winchester. Group size for 10 shots was 7.153 MOA.

Attachment 185622


Group #3:

Boolit Nose was sized to .301 using an NOE nose sizer die. Gas Check was applied before HF Red Powder Coat was applied using shake and bake, one coat cured in oven at 400° temp for 30 Minutes, then Air Cooled. Sized to .310 in push through die. Nose measured .301. Load was 45 Grains W760 in .308 Winchester. Group size for 10 shots was 6.837 MOA.

Attachment 185623


Group #4:

Boolit Nose was sized to .302 using an NOE nose sizer die. Gas Check was applied before HF Red Powder Coat was applied using shake and bake, one coat cured in oven at 400° temp for 30 Minutes, then Air Cooled. Sized to .310 in push through die. Nose measured .302. Load was 45 Grains W760 in .308 Winchester. Group size for 10 shots was 2.487 MOA.

Attachment 185624


The bore on this Remington 700 is .300.
Conventional wisdom says .001 over bore diamater (.301); yet it was the fatter nosed PC'd boolits (as cast .304 and .302 sized) that gave the best accuracy. I'll do some more on this at a later date.

[popper]

Try WD and don't run so hot

[runfiverun]

shows how important the nose is on a long bore rider like the 165gr silhouette is.
I got mine to shoot better with a harder [pseudo 5/5/90] alloy and a slightly larger nose also.

[Kraschenbirn]

No pics on-hand right now but I'm shooting that same boolit - cast from Lyman #2, air-cooled, and PC'd with Smoke's Carolina Blue - from my heavy-barrel Rem 700 and getting consistent 1 1/2" 5-shot groups at 100 yds and easily picking off liter-size Gatorade bottles at 200. 'As-cast' nose, 32.5 gr of H4895, W-W primers, Fed Comm'l brass, boolit seated to just touch rifling.

Rifle shoots sub-MOA with 168 gr. SMKs and I'm still tinkering to see how close I can come to matching that.


Bill

[MUSTANG]

Out today for some further HF Red Powder Coating of the RCBS 165Sil. Boolits for both groups were Water Quenched immediately after the Powder Coating cooked for 30 minutes. Noses were as cast for these boolits. Aluminum gas check from Amerimax flashing. Sized to .310 in an NOE push through sizer die.

1st Group:

3.926 MOA

45 Grains W760 powder. 20 mph wind from left to right, temp 30 °. Targets 100 Yards.

Attachment 186021


2nd Group:

2.929 MOA

32.5 Grains H4895 powder. Used a small Dacron over powder filler to keep powder held against primer. 20 mph wind from left to right, temp 30 °. Targets 100 Yards. Aluminum gas check from Amerimax flashing. Sized to .310 in an NOE push through sizer die.

I had enough H4895 powder left in an old 1 lb can for about 20 rounds using Kraschenbirns recipe of 32.5 Grains. I have 4 or 5 one lb cans of IMR4895; but used the leftover H4895 (this is in an old card board sided can). References indicate a slight load difference between H4895 and IMR4895; I'll try some IMR4895 at a future date. 25% reduction in size using H4895 instead of W760. Once snow diminishes, I'll start collecting some velocity data. Currently snow/drifts are too deep to set up tripod and Chrony.

Attachment 186026

[popper]

You may need to add some Cu to that alloy and cook for 1 hr, then into ice water. Bama found it helps. I don't use the SIL but 165gr GC. 335 & 4895 work good in my LR308. Thesse were going 2400 out of the carbine. ESPC HF red. Without the Cu, I had to WD 4-5% Sb.
Attachment 186070

[OS OK]

Regarding post #1 groups 1 & 4...

I personally think that you are 'off of a barrel node' and these groups can be made to tighten up...maybe a considerable amount.
I have your platform, my favorite...and have done the 'Node search' with 168g. match HPBT's and Varget...with as much a .3 grain differences you can see the groups tighten and open dramatically.
Yes, I'm quoting results from J-type boolits but I think the casts will follow the same trends on a different scale until the barrel node is found and then you can fiddle with the sizing and have it be more specific, uhh...be seen more in group results than when shooting off node.

Just my .02, not meant to offend or criticize...

charlie

[MUSTANG]

3 February, 2017: Today’s testing consisted of three strings.

First String – 10 Rounds: This load used an RCBS 165 Sil boolit that was cast of an alloy with 96% lead, 3% antimony, and 1% tin. Boolits were Powder coated using Harbor Freight Red Powder Coat paint and the Shake and Bake method for 30 minutes at 400°. An aluminum gas check made using a PatMarlin die and Amerimax .014 roof flashing was applied before Powder Coating. Powder coated boolit was taken immediately from the oven and dropped in cold water to water quench; resulted in 14.3 BHN PC’d boolit. Sized to 0.311 using a Lee push through sizing die. Cases full length sized, then mouth expanded slightly using an RCBS .308 neck expanding die. Cartridge OAL was 2.665 inches using PMC .308 Winchester brass.

Powder for this Test was 45 Grains of W-760 Powder.

Attachment 187087 5.0865 MOA


Second String -10 Rounds: This load used an RCBS 165 Sil boolit that was cast of an alloy with 96% lead, 3% antimony, and 1% tin. Boolits were Powder coated using Harbor Freight Red Powder Coat paint and the Shake and Bake method for 30 minutes at 400°. An aluminum gas check made using a PatMarlin die and Amerimax .014 roof flashing was applied before Powder Coating. Powder coated boolit was taken immediately from the oven and dropped in cold water to water quench; resulted in 14.3 BHN PC’d boolit. Sized to 0.311 using a Lee push through sizing die. Cases full length sized, then mouth expanded slightly using an RCBS .308 neck expanding die. Cartridge OAL was 2.665 inches using PMC .308 Winchester brass.

Powder for this Test was 41.2 Grains of H-4895.

Attachment 187088 2.815 MOA


Third String – 5 Rounds: This load was to establish a baseline for comparison in my Remington 700 ADL Varmint 308 Winchester rifle. The rifle has only had 10 rounds of jacketed ammo fired from it, 5 rounds initially to get the scope on target when first bought, and this string of 5 to establish a baseline for comparing results. All other rounds have been either Paper Patched cast boolits, or Powder Coated boolits. This load consisted of 175 grain Sierra Match King’s, and H-4895 Powder.

Powder for this Test was 41.2 Grains of H-4895.

Attachment 187089 0.965 MOA


Looks like the faster H-4895 is providing better groups for the Powder Coated RCBS 165Sil boolits. Weather conditions might have some effect on the shooting today. It was 5 degrees, 20mph winds, heavy snow and visibility of only about 250 yards at the range.

In future tests I’ll see if changes in powder charges may yield a better grouping. Wouldn't is be great to find a replacement for expensive Sierra Match king 175's (about 40 to 45 cents each) that would work out in the 500 to 800 yard range. Ballistic coefficient of the RCBS 165Sil is 0.286 quite a ways away from 0.496 for the SMK 175, so this one may not make it; but the RCBS 200 Sil/SP may be a candidate later.

[RP]

Man 5 degrees and your out shooting guess you got to want it. To cold for this southern boy may get that cold here one or two days a winter and that is a maybe. Heck I had to kill skeeters two days ago watching my grandkids play in the yard today they say we may get some snow lol got to love NC.

[Walter Laich]

curious why you bake your bullets for 30 minutes?

[MUSTANG]

curious why you bake your bullets for 30 minutes?

I am trying to both cure the Powder Coat; and also Heat Treat the Boolits. A variety of sources have commented on the heat treating regimen of Cast Boolits. In the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, Third Edition, page 60 concerning heat treating they say:

"....There seems to be no benefit to keeping a batch in the oven more than an hour. In fact, a half-hour does just as well. If not better."

The HF Red Powder Coat directions call for a 15-20 minute cook time. The additional 10 minutes allows the core temp of the boolit to come up to temp and the crystal structure to be readied for the Water Quench and atomic lattice structure associated with hardening to occur (or thats my translation of what I have read over the years). A hotter temp might be better, and create a harder boolit, but not sure when you would reach the high end of the HF Red temp range and damage the powder coat.

For this particular alloy (Isotope core material) I get a 22.7 BHN if I drop directly from casting mold to cold water. As the curing at 400 degrees would destroy the heat treating, for those boolits destined to be Powder Coated; I just air cool thereafter casting; then "Heat Treat" and water quench in the Powder Coat curing process. The process I use after PC curing yielded 14.3 BHN (as measured with a Lee BHN measurer).

[244ack]

Great stuff, thanks for sharing

[MUSTANG]

15 Feb 2017:

Todays testing was performed with RCBS 165Sil boolits of same alloy as previously used in this thread. Boolits were coated with TWO coats of HF Red Powder Coat paint using shake and bake method. During the 1^st curing effort, all boolits fell over in the oven so they were baked, cooled, recoated with HF Red, and then baked a 2^nd time to 400 degrees for 30 minutes, then water cooled.

Two coating of HF Red resulted in thick boolits that were harder to size in a Lee Push through sizing die, requiring the boolit to be lubed lightly with Lanolin lube on an RCBS Lube Pad. Sized to 0.311 in a Lee Push through die. Closing the rifle bolt was difficult for this test string; nose was tight in the throat.

Temperature was 30 ° and wind was about 5mph from the Southwest. Clear skies. Five test strings were fired with 5 rounds in each string. Only difference was the powder charge weight of H-4895 used in each 5 round string. They were:

H-4895 Powder

41.5 Grains 3.031 MOA
41.8 Grains 4.962 MOA
42.1 Grains 3.041 MOA
42.4 Grains 2.409 MOA
42.7 Grains 6.160 MOA


Pictures of the five groups:


Attachment 188463


For future tests I’ll stay with a single coat of HF Red, and discard any that require a 2^nd coating. For now I’ll only do a single sizing using the Push through sizer dies. I do have some RCBS Nose bushings on order that I’ll try in the future for nose sizing; but they are on backorder and forecast not to be shipped until mid March.

[Phantom30]

can you include a picture of some of you PC boolits, like those used in these tests

[Dragonheart]

Mustang, have you checked your bullets to determine whether they are concentric? I realize you are sizing the bands and the nose in two separate operations and each will be about as round as you can get, but like laying a nickle on a quarter it doesn't mean the two circles are concentric. I have spent many hours with the NOE bushings and have never been able to produce a concentric bullet out of any of the molds I have. Maybe your RCBS mold is a better choice of design?

Your Match King bullets are an excellent example; when I have checked these bullets the dial just doesn't move. A bullet that is not concentric is a lopsided bullet and like a damaged bullet it will not be consistently accurate at distance and velocity. I think the success you have had by over-sizing nose is due to the pressure is actually reforming the bullet and making it more concentric as it engages the rifling. Additionally the longer bearing surface is helping to stabilize the bullet.

I have just about decided what we really need are undersized molds that would allow us to true up of the bullet without moving masses of metal and then we could build out with PC to form the jacket. Bama stated he had no perfect molds and neither do I, the bullets are not concentric out of the mold. I think this is where our problems start and then by not having sizing dies that will keep the surfaces concentric. To this end Bama made his own and it would appear he is definitely on the right track.

[tomme boy]

That bullet does not like to be pushed fast. Try 28.5 gr of 4895 and a 1 gr of dacron. That will show you what the bullet is capable of.

[MUSTANG]

That bullet does not like to be pushed fast. Try 28.5 gr of 4895 and a 1 gr of dacron. That will show you what the bullet is capable of.

I am aware of what the RCBS 165Sil is capable of; which is why I selected it for these tests. The following pic is a 10 round string of RCBS 165Sil shot in Sept of 2012 using a Hardware store grade .308 Winchester (Westernfield) my Dad bought for me in 1970. It was loaded with 26 Grains surplus WC846 powder (did NOT use over powder dacron or... filler). Had an amerimax aluminum gas check, Carnuba Red lube, and sized .310.



The Boolit can shoot; but the goal is to find a means of getting the velocity up to the ~ 2700 FPS range with similar accuracy. It may not be achievable; but it remains the current goal. Exploration of what can be accomplished using HFRed Powder Coat by modifying a variety of processing steps in pursuit of that goal is the purpose of the thread.

The boolits ARE NOT CONCENTRIC. My RCBS 165Sil mold throws a slightly undersize boolit. It has had pieces of aluminum tape placed on the mold face to expand the boolit. This was necessary years ago to get the boolit to shoot (ref the above picture). I may remove these shims and then see how it shoots after returning to "Factory Original" under-size and then build up with the HF Red. This spring when the melt comes I'll re-explore some copper being added to the alloy when I can process lead outside/in the reloading shed.

I should see delivery of some RCBS neck sizer dies in .300, .301,.. to .307 in the near future (backorder for now). I'll see how I can do some nose sizing with these when received.