Firearm protection

[smokeywolf]

If you're house burns to the slab, it doesn't matter what level of fire protection your safe has, your guns will be damaged. That's what insurance is for.

To provide a level of fire protection that would protect your guns would most likely cost more than your guns are worth. So you have to figure out what level of protection you want and how much you're willing to invest.

As you did not add a qualifier (probably, most likely) to that statement. I'm thinking you must have some personal experience with regard to this. Could you expand or offer a little more detail? If this happened to you or a friend, what brand and model of safe was it? RSC or class B safe?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Love Life--you're definitely on the right track with the shop. When I built mine about 10 years ago I included a full bathroom, kitchenette, hard wired for telephone (4 jacks), computer (2 locations), a large sliding door on one end for entry and removal of heavy machinery--but no vault as I couldn't fit it into the design. The building is 24'x32' and is two story with another floor upstairs with a useable room of about 10'x32', less about 5' of stairwell access. It has a barn-type roof, so there is storage on the 2nd floor on either side of the 10' wide room. I'm anticipating moving in a year or so, and will be buying an existing place with and existing shop, so will anticipate some remodeling. A couple more features: motion activated outside security lights on the two sides not visible from the house, and intercom to the house, and a telephone service not available everywhere, but here it is called "Ring back". You dial your own phone number and when you get a busy signal you hang up. Then, in about 3 seconds your phone will ring. You pick up the receiver and are connected to your house and whomever picked up the phone when it rang on that end.

I think the important things to remember about safes are that they fall into two basic types: security and fire. The fire safes are primarily meant to protect their contents from the heat of fires, and all are rated as to the temperature that the interior will withstand and for how long. Although the door may appear very sturdy and burglar resistant, the sides and rear are less so as they usually involve two layers of steel with fire clay in between. As has been pointed out in several previous posts, it's a really good idea to bolt them to the wall and floor to keep them from being turned over and attacked with cold chisels, pry bars, and torch on the sides and/or back. It's far more common for a fire safe to be entered at the location than to be hauled away. All gun safes that I have seen, regardless of appearance and claims, are actually fire safes.

The true Security-type safe, as a financial institution might store funds in or a jewelry company might store diamonds in, is super, super heavy as it is thick solid steel all the way around and very difficult to move. They require a very solid (reinforced concrete?) footing and are not the kind of thing you're likely to be able to install on a 2nd floor, or even in a basement after the building is constructed unless provision to do so was included in the design like a freight elevator. Very often when a business that has a true Security safe moves or goes out of business the safe remains behind. They can be defeated and opened, but it requires a long session with a cutting torch or explosives, and is more of a thing of novels and movies than something that happens often.

Having once been in the security industry for a few years I can make the recommendation that the gun safes offered on the market today, the better ones, are certainly better than nothing; and if properly installed will give the average burglar pause to consider whether or not he has the time to work on it without being caught. Most will take the easily available and saleable items, be in and out in 10-30 minutes. What is really needed in combination with such a safe is a good burglar alarm. Whether connected into a monitoring service or not, the sound of an alarm going off will hasten the departure of the intruder and possibly alert neighbors to the fact that something is occurring--especially if they've been previously briefed that the alarm exists (not necessarily what it protects) and to call 911 if they hear it sounding. That's best, of course, for those who have neighbors. If you're very rural or have untrustworthy neighbors, then it's best not to stray too far from home too long. Some of the major nationwide alarm companies have periodic specials like $90 for installation and $30 per month equipment rental and monitoring, where available, and that's pretty good insurance for a collection worth many thousands of dollars.

[Blackwater]

Thanks for the compliment.

A cross between Sean Connery and Lee Van Cleef? That would scare me. Wouldn't know what to expect--the long barreled SAA with rifle stock, or an oil slick!

I guess the most dangerous type of burglar is becoming the most common type--the drug addict. Stealing to get a fix, maybe desperate to get one or already high.

I'm glad that at least one reformed.

I remember the Sgt. on Hill Street Blues saying things like, "Hey, hey--Let's be careful out there," and "Remember..be careful out there," but didn't see the episode where he said "Y'all..." You probably saw the Southern version.

I guess ya' got me pegged purdy good thar! And his personality is kind'a a cross between Lee and Sean, too. Very good man, and I'm glad to call him a friend. Not many like him. Never have been. But it's useful to know how he does it, at least.

[paul h]

As you did not add a qualifier (probably, most likely) to that statement. I'm thinking you must have some personal experience with regard to this. Could you expand or offer a little more detail? If this happened to you or a friend, what brand and model of safe was it? RSC or class B safe?

First an understanding of fire ratings:

U.L. Label/Class 350°F-one hour and Class 350°F-two hour. The safe will maintain an interior temperature less than 350°F when exposed to fire for a period of one hour at 1700°F or for a period of two hours at 1850°F.

When a house burns to the slab, you're going to have the safe heated by the fire itself for some time, and then you'll have the safe surrounded by hot debri for and extended period of time, likely a few hours. The fire fighters aren't going to rush in to clear the debri away from your safe, neither will they let you at it.

Don't know about you, but I'd expect most stocks and optics to be damaged after being exposed to 350°F, so even if the safe performs as designed, it's not likely to protect the contents from damage. If you want to test this, crank your oven up to 350F and put a handgun or rifle in it for a few hours and report back.

A fireproof safe does not mean there will be no damage to the contents in a fire, all it means is that the safe was designed and tested to a given set of criteria. The safe can be fire rated and the contents can still be damaged.

Will some fire proof safes protect some guns in some fires, yes. Should you blindly believe firearms in a fire proof safe will be protected from all fires, no.

[garym1a2]

Keep tools that can break a safe locked up or hidden. A friend had his safe broke open and his guns stolen. Someone knew he was out of town for the weekend, broke into his house, got his tools and cut open the safe. Angle grinders and cutoff wheels can cut the safe open if he has the time.

[smokeywolf]

paul h, you've obviously done your due diligence on this. I was not questioning your knowledge, but looking to further "pick your brain".

Completely agree with you that finishes and optics won't survive the 350 degree temp quoted in the ratings. This is one of the reasons that I take a safe manufacturer's fire ratings and cut their time by 50%, which I believe will almost certainly be a more realistic expectation.

I spent quite a bit of time at "gunsafereviewsguy.com/articles/myths-about-gun-safe-fire-ratings/" while studying gun safes. He offers very comprehensive and seemingly unbiased study of gun safes.

[shoot-n-lead]

Keep tools that can break a safe locked up or hidden. A friend had his safe broke open and his guns stolen. Someone knew he was out of town for the weekend, broke into his house, got his tools and cut open the safe. Angle grinders and cutoff wheels can cut the safe open if he has the time.

Do you keep those tools locked up in a safe, also?

Otherwise, they will just break into what you have them locked up in, take them out and use them to open your safe.

There is no way to cover all situations.

[shoot-n-lead]

A friend of mine is a reserve fireman of about 10yrs, we were discussing fireproof gun safes...he told me that he has never seen a common commercial fireproof gun safe that would protect the contents if the house had burned completely. He said the guns were always ruined.

[smokeywolf]

Does anybody here have a fire sprinkler system in their house? Seems like that might be the most effective measure that could be taken to guard against loss by fire.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The cost and installation difficulties of a safe to the standard people use for jewellery and large sums of money escalate drastically with size, and will be horrendous for one which will accommodate a lot of long guns. There is a lot to be said for a small and really secure one, possibly concreted into a wall, in which bolts and breechblocks are kept. A notice on the big safe saying that is the case might be a deterrent. A thief very likely won't take the risk of wrenching out and trucking away the big safe before he has found and opened the small one, which is impossible if there isn't one. Who would you be lying to? Somebody you owe the truth?

Some of the most effective alarm systems don't alarm anybody outside the room. In these days of wireless technology, if a simple pressure-release switch or pad makes a single LED start flashing, he doesn't know what it is doing somewhere else. On top of mine I used to keep a loosely covered tray of a mixture of old oil and stamp-pad ink. If your floor covering will stand it, a good dose of that stuff may be enough to send an imaginative thief looking for a change of clothing and an alibi.

[garym1a2]

I dont even have a safe yet. I just keep my guns in three locations. My brother keeps his guns in a RSC and his tools in a locked job box. I brought two job boxes to store mine in as the house floor will not support a heavy safe. Concerning fire protection their are ways to improve it. You could make a closet around the safe made on concrete, insulation, sheet rock, tile the inside and outside of the safe with ceramic tile will make it harder to cut open. Store extra lead in it to make it heavy.
Don't have powder and things that burn hot in your gun room.

Do you keep those tools locked up in a safe, also?

Otherwise, they will just break into what you have them locked up in, take them out and use them to open your safe.

There is no way to cover all situations.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If you have a fairly thin steel cabinet, vertical tubes filled with hardened steel rollers or ball bearings in the angle near the locks will resist a saw, or even to some extent an abrasive disc cutter.

[paul h]

Does anybody here have a fire sprinkler system in their house? Seems like that might be the most effective measure that could be taken to guard against loss by fire.

I've worked in the fire protection industry for ~20 years. There are a few things I've learned in that time.

1) Codes and standards are written to provide a minimum level of protection.
2) Meeting codes and standards does not guarantee you will be protected against all possible hazards.
3) The codes are written in blood, i.e. they are reactive to when someone was killed and retroactively address those minimum levels of protection.
4) There is a world of difference between life safety, and asset protection. Most codes and standards are addressed to provide life safety, not asset protection. Typically meeting life safety requirements is much less expensive than asset protection.

Hence when looking at fire ratings for residential buildings, fire detection and sprinkler systems, they are generally designed to aid in providing sufficient protection for the occupants of the building to exit the structure. They are not designed to protect the structure or the contents of the structure.

My personal thought is whether or not your safe is fireproof, mostly likely your firearms will be damaged in a house fire. Hence make sure you have sufficient insurance for the guns and don't sweat whether or not your safe is fireproof. If I have a house fire, my only goal and concern is that my family is able to safely exit the house. If it burns to the slab, so be it. We almost lost our house to a wild fire this summer, it puts what I value in perspective.





I do believe a sprinkler system does provide additional life safety benefits and would recommend investigating how much it would cost to install one. I haven't installed one because our house is on a private well and I would expect to loose power to my well in the event of a fire and hence it would be of minimum benefit in many fire scenarios, also quite expensive given the size of my house. I am considering installing a sprinkler in my utility room as it contains my hot water heater and furnace and is located in my basement. Hence a higher risk of fire, and a much longer response for me to determine there is a fire in the location and to respond to it.

[JWT]

Fire scares me as much as theft. One of the things I read recently is that if you put your safe in the basement and the house burns down, the safe ends up buried under several feet of coals and/or water.

Guy at work had a fire that started in his basement right by his safe(s) due to a battery charger. The structure of the house was saved so no pit of coals, but the smoke/vapor damaged his guns. His insurance policy paid to have all of the required repairs and refinishing done.

[smokeywolf]

Guy at work had a fire that started in his basement right by his safe(s) due to a battery charger. The structure of the house was saved so no pit of coals, but the smoke/vapor damaged his guns. His insurance policy paid to have all of the required repairs and refinishing done.

The insurance company cannot restore the value of an antique rifle in completely original condition. As soon as a restoration is done, it's no longer in "original condition" and its value is greatly reduced.

[JWT]

The insurance company cannot restore the value of an antique rifle in completely original condition. As soon as a restoration is done, it's no longer in "original condition" and its value is greatly reduced.

Same thing I told him.

[McFred]

If you have a safe, don't tell people. Don't keep it in plain sight unless you have a dummy one specifically for distracting thieves who would go after safes. If people don't know you have things to steal then you're less of a target. This is referred to as Operational Security. Just keep your mouth shut.

Layered physical security with detection/alarms tied to emergency response is the only way to go for irreplaceable assets. You have to perform your own risk analysis to see what measures you're willing to take to secure your assets. For a $300 plastic pistol it makes no sense to blow $20,000 on a vault. I agree dedicated thieves will eventually breach your security, the physical security aspects only supply delay so that someone has time to respond.

In terms of fire protection you can insulate a RSC in excess of the fire rating by stacking up gypsum board, fiberglass and refractory brick etc. outside of the box. It's generally not a great idea to put your safe on a floor that's not the ground floor either. A 1,000lb safe is not rated to fall 10-12+ feet in a house fire and maintain a good door seal while stewing in a bed of coals. Try to keep it where there's a lower fuel load too. A corner of the house, not in the garage next to all your high VOC paint and gas cans. If you live in a rural community with a threat of wildfire, don't put cord wood on the other side of the wall from your RSC etc.

With regard to insurance, I for one don't like having to itemize the contents of my RSC for the policy underwriter. If I could get blanket-coverage for a set value then that's different. That will hep you get back what was lost, but you'll always lose the deductible. Low deductibles mean higher premiums.

A lot of it is common sense. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

[smokeywolf]

McFred,
Good write up. Good advice.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If you are on the ground floor and can get through to earth, either through a wooden or concrete floor, use an earth augur (you can rent a power-driven one) to drill one or more deep holes, to fill with concrete and steel rods, of which one is either threaded or an internally threaded tube. With the safe bolted to what amounts to a deep pile, there is no way they can drag it out sideways.

[farmbif]

you might get some ideas if you watch the movie "Street Thief"