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Thread: cast bullets and high velocity cartridges

  1. #21
    Boolit Master

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    Just because a cartridge is capable of or developed for relatively high velocity doesn't mean a CB hunting load in that cartridge needs to go fast. I'm in the process of developing another CB hunting load for 30-06 for my rifle. I worked up a very low velocity/low recoil load for a youngster using that cartridge last year and it worked great! Some critters in some situations don't take much to kill cleanly, it certainly doesn't take a 165 gr jacketed bullet @ 2800 fps to kill Texas deer.
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  2. #22
    Boolit Master
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    I am reluctant to shoo tgame critters beyond about 200yards. Too many game thieves around these days. I have mobility problems,by the time I reach MY deer, some one else might be claiming it.. . I have used soft nosed/lino bodied cast bullets for game and varmints. In calibers as small as .223 and up to 45_70.They can work very well IF bones are not hit. My normal muzzle velocity with ACWW alloy is about 2200fps. In the 45- 70 it is less than 1700/rifle 1350 in the Contender.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master 6pt-sika's Avatar
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    I'll find out first hand this summer in the accuracy department . And if I can get the gun to shoot to suit me I'll find out about the deer killing ability in the fall . I have a couple molds coming for my new to me Mannlicher Schoenauer MCA 270 . I'm gonna try loads in the 2400-2600 FPS range . I also plan on trying air cooled and water dropped WW's . I have some 50/50 pure/WW alloy as well I may try .
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  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    IF I have a rifle that is a speed demon say like my 220 swift
    I don't even consider using cast
    there are rifle cartridges that are more suited for cast velocity wise
    of course you can always down load speedy cartridges if you so desire
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  5. #25
    Boolit Master popper's Avatar
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    xdmalder - SIL has a 308ME - very accurate. He go one a while back with factory FTX, hit the spine and it blew up. But then his his kid got one with a 243 SST and it blew up too. Both were ~100 yds. Dverna & D.D. have it right, use the jacketed stuff for really long hunting shots. Accuracy counts. I took my AR carbine pig hunting (2400 load) but saw nothing but deer, got a pig that trip with 40SW cast @ 25. My BO is doing 2100 with a 145gr PB FP, try H110/296. Not a fps freak but those critters move fast and even close I want flat traj. for a good hit. Buddy tries to get running hogs with his AR15 @ 150 or so. He gets hits but doesn't drop them.
    Whatever!

  6. #26
    Boolit Master nanuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    .....

    For me, cast rifle bullets used for hunting have their place in slower and heavier applications. Where a long shot is 200 yards. Limit the range with your .308 if that suits you, but you will regret it the first time you have a 350 yard shot down a power line or across a corn field.

    Don Verna
    that's where "Hunting" skill comes to play!
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  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    Just make up some soft nose cast slugs, takes a bit of experimenting but works great once you hit the sweet spot. I use 2 different casting pots, the one with pure lead I just use a small dipper to pour in the pure & then top it off with my WW alloy & then water quench in a bucket of water that has a towel in the top. The towel has a small hole in the center so the bullet roll to the center when cool & drop to them bottom. You don't need a lot of them, unless you're from Utah.

    Dick

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    l.m..b.o. Dick.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  9. #29
    Boolit Master Oklahoma Rebel's Avatar
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    adding copper to your alloy will help at higher velocities both to grip the rifleing and keep the boolit from breaking up, I made 125lbs of 5/4/.5copper
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  10. #30
    Boolit Master Oklahoma Rebel's Avatar
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    it was lyman #2 but I know the copper replaces some tin in the alloy so 4% tin is a guess, it is between 4 and 5%
    Norinco SKS
    mosin nagant est 1937
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  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    How would you add copper to your alloy mix. Is it a powder?
    Life Member of NRA,NTA,DAV ,ITA. Also member of FTA,CBA

  12. #32
    Boolit Master


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    If your rifle has a groove diameter of .308 and you're pushing the cast, lubed bullets 1700 - 2000+ fps the bullets are being swaged down not only by the bore but by the layer of lube in the barrel. Recovered bullets cast of #2 alloy and WQ'd out of .308 barrels measure .303 - .305 most often. The harder the alloy the less this swaging occurs but the bullets will still be less than groove diameter. Thus how well the bullet "grips the rifling" is more a function of the depth of the rifling than the alloy. Recovered bullets out of 10, 12, 14 and 16" twist barrels with .004 deep rifling at velocities of 1700 - 2900+ fps show no evidence of stripping in the rifling.

    Another associated problem with adding copper to a ternary alloy such as #2 is that shrinkage in the mould is increased. Since we can not control the shrinkage to ensure it is even on the bullet such copper alloyed bullets are more unbalanced. At higher velocity those imbalances are very detrimental to accuracy. The inaccuracy is much more pronounced at longer ranges, especially at ranges longer than 100 yards.

    Having killed numerous animals with cast bullets at 1950 - 2200+ fps the break up or shattering of a ternary alloy cast bullet is more a function of the bullet design than of the alloy.

    Larry Gibson

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    except that copper makes a cast boolit grow just like antimony after it is out of the mold.
    imbalances from diameter differences are from out of round molds, uneven heat distribution, or heating the mold to a point where it expands towards the cavity's while casting.
    it's all an educated guess,,,, till the trigger is pulled.

    this opinion brought to you by mister low-tech solution..

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    If not for cast bullets in our .308s and others, many of us could not afford to shoot them.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT Chambers View Post
    If not for cast bullets in our .308s and others, many of us could not afford to shoot them.
    True for me

  16. #36
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by runfiverun View Post
    except that copper makes a cast boolit grow just like antimony after it is out of the mold.
    imbalances from diameter differences are from out of round molds, uneven heat distribution, or heating the mold to a point where it expands towards the cavity's while casting.
    Not at all in my experience. The moulds (Lyman, MiHec and NOE) I tested copper+ ternary alloys in produce almost perfectly round bullets with COWWs +2% tin, #2 alloy and linotype. Casting with Copper+ alloys does require a bit different casting technique. The problem is with bullets having more shrinkage, even if they do expand again, you can not control the shrinkage or the expansion. Also the imbalance does not have to be very large can be as small as in the 10 thousandth range, to create a greater degree of inaccuracy at higher velocity/RPM. It's the difference between moa or less accuracy and 1 1/2 - 2 moa accuracy. Or, if you push the unbalance to hard by velocity/RPM it exceeds the RPM Threshold.

    Larry Gibson

  17. #37
    Boolit Master

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    This is the first time I've heard anyone report shrinkage with added copper instead of growth, for up to two months. The more copper, the more growth.

    Guess I shouldn't be surprised.
    More "This is what happened when I,,,,," and less "What would happen if I,,,,"

    "Control the things you can control, maggot. Let everything else take a flying (leap) at you, and if you must go down, go down with your guns blazing."- The Dark Tower, Steven King


  18. #38
    Boolit Master


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    The Copper + alloys shrink in the mould when the alloy solidifies. My old 311466 drops Lino bullets at .313 and the copper+ alloy at .311. It's why most old Ideal and early Lyman moulds cut with older cherries drop "oversize" bullets. They were cut for Lyman #1 alloy. In moulds with the nominal diameter of 311xxx they would drop close to .311 bullets with that #1 alloy. Any guess what #1 alloy was? It was 80 parts lead, 10 parts tin, 7 parts antimony and 3 parts copper.

    That's why Copper+ alloys will drop at smaller diameters, they shrink more in the mould. Should be no surprises there.

    Larry Gibson

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    I've tried a LOT of different BABBIT alloys mixed with lead and other bullet alloys. Some times I had to wonder WHY that mix shot so poorly compared to another similar. In a few cases it was the copper in the babbit. A very similar alloy with a good bit LESS copper, was much more accurate. I got some bullets made from an aluminum/zinc mix. They weighed a lot less than the normal cast boolits from identical molds. They were much harder also. If shot at starting loads for jacketed they were okay accuracy wise. They would NOT expand at these high speeds. They would foul the barrel quick too.! I shot five or six at ground hogs one day, the next day at the range I could not hit a ten inch plate @ 100 yards. NO amount of cleaning helped! A rebarrel job was done. Those slugs would zip thru a ground hog as if it wasn't there. A head shot popped the eyes on one but the entry/exit holes were the same size. Heart shot, the piggies would stand up , look around , then fall dead.Any gut shot hog would run to its hole.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master Oklahoma Rebel's Avatar
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    not sayin it doesn't happen, but I have never noticed any shrinkage, or imbalance, my Cu boolits are as or more accurate then regular #2 alloy boolits. I use a stick welder and thick copper wire to get the copper in, I "weld" on the frequently stirred surface of molten lead in my large half propane tank smelter. I judge by weight as to hhow much to put in, that is easier if you do a large batch. mine was 125#and I think like ten ounces of copper. but its been a while so not sure
    Norinco SKS
    mosin nagant est 1937
    S&W 15-2 combat masterpiece
    Remington 597 22lr w/30 rnd clip
    12ga NEF single shot
    heritage 22lr/22mag

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
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