FFG, FFG, or ???

[DEDHEAD]

If one is compressing the powder charge how much does the granulation really matter?

[Chill Wills]

yep.
I don't know.
I have very little experience doing that.

Powder makers put all that effort into making a uniform grain size
We spend all that money buying the best made powder we can afford
And then,
We crush it into a particle size that equals dust/clay
And, with enough pressure, we form a plug.

[Washington1331]

A bit more information would be helpful as to what you are trying to achieve. What caliber? Rifle or pistol? Are you talking about real black powder or one of the substitutes? I ask because some of the substitutes really do not like a lot of compression. Triple 7 comes to mind. GOEX black powder for some reason (from my experience) works well for me with a good deal of compression.

With either the substitutes or real black powder, typically the finer the granulation the quicker the powder will burn/detonate, which normally causes an increase in pressure .

From experience with real black powder I've noticed that the finer granulations of powder are a bit more difficult to compress, I think (and I could be wrong) that this is due to the individual grains lying closer to each other with less air space in between. The extra force needed could cause powder crushing and result in a larger increase of pressure than expected.

For example, in Spencer Wolf's book on loading for the 45-70, he lists two loads one with 3FG and the other with 2FG with the same weight boolit.

Load 1: 7X.X gr 2FG: 17,600 CUP AVG, 19,000 CUP PEAK.
Load 2: 6X.X gr 3FG: 19,000 CUP AVG, 20,300 CUP PEAK.
*Data redacted for copyright purposes*

The 3FG load even with fewer grains than the 2FG load produces more pressure. Both powder charges are compressed (each a different amount based on the height of the powder column) but the lesser 3FG load creates more pressure.

IMHO granulation can matter a great deal. Does that answer your question?

[DEDHEAD]

Thanks for the replies, I'm loading a 45-90 Sharps with 80 grains of ffg, compressing it about .187" to make room for a grease cookie. Shooting a 500 grain Postell boolit.
The reasons I'm asking are: one, I'm curious, and two, I'm running low on ffg but have lots of fffg ( real black powder ). Thanks again.

[rfd]

sure seems like most the top bpcr/bptr guns are running with swiss 1-1/2f ...

[Don McDowell]

Thanks for the replies, I'm loading a 45-90 Sharps with 80 grains of ffg, compressing it about .187" to make room for a grease cookie. Shooting a 500 grain Postell boolit.
The reasons I'm asking are: one, I'm curious, and two, I'm running low on ffg but have lots of fffg ( real black powder ). Thanks again.

You need to order some more powder. You might find a load with your 3f, but you may find the recoil unpleasant.

[Baja_Traveler]

When a column of say 1 1/2 powder is compressed in a 45-70 case, only the top few tenths of an inch get crushed to smaller granulation/powder. The remainder of the powder column maintains its grain size and is just compacted together.

I know this having disassembled 100 finished cases from when I sold off a rifle for a new one, and forgot to check if the old unsized brass would fit in the new chamber. Scraping out a compressed load is a royal Pain, and the recovered powder had to be sieved of the resulting fines, which I used in my Old army.

[Gunlaker]

I'd agree with Don. The FFFg will generally give higher velocities and recoil. I have shot some nice targets with FFFg, but prefer 1.5, in either Swiss or OE.

With that said, some excellent shooters have won long range matches shooting .45-70's with FFFg.

The amount you are compressing will only affect the top part of the powder column.

Chris.

[Good Cheer]

Using Jacks Battle Powder in .45 Colt seems to work OK.
People say it's the floor sweepings from GOEX but well, it's just un-graphited powder that works where ever I've tried it.

[PatMarlin]

Hope you guys don't mind if I jump in here.

I would value your input on a few thoughts…

I picked up an 1859 Pedersoli Sharps in 54 caliber this past year and it's my first breech loader. Haven't fired it yet, and I've been studying up on the subject.

Regarding desired loads and bullet/cartridge fit. I understand the importance of absolutely no air space between the powder and the bullet. So I assume you are limited by the actual powder space behind whatever bullet you happened to be using, and the block correct?

How do you make a reduced load? Adjust bullet size and fill used over your powder with (wads)?

Otherwise a full powder fill behind your bullet would be a max load correct? Compressed even more.

If you wanted to use reduced 3F, not over compress and adjust your load, why couldn't you use dacron fill, or more wads?

Without having fired my sharps yet, I was wondering how you adjust your loads. I have a lot of 3F on hand, and it happens to be Triple 7.

Also, how many calibers are there used for these breech loading rifles?

Thanks much,

Pat

[Irascible]

In my opinion, the only way to reduce a load is to use a lighter bullet. Either that or use a courser powder. You really need the case full.
A case full of uncompressed 777 may work. I don't like it or Pyrodex as it leaves a very hard, crusty, fouling.

[PatMarlin]

I don't like Pyrodex either.

I've done some pretty remarkable work with T7 with my smooth bore shotguns. Not as much on rifled muzzleloaders yet. I just clean up with Ballistol.

Well will see what develops. I'm working on some dies for my 1859 Sharps that is a new idea, that will let me use my all of my 54 cal molds with this rifle. If it works, should be pretty neat. Now if the weather would cooperate, I can get some range work done.

Are there any other rifles that use this Paper Cartridge breech system like the1859 Sharps? Is 54 cal the only caliber used?

[bob208]

I have found that 1f through a drop tube 24" long and not compressing it. gives the best accuracy. yes it is a little slower but with what the bullet weights I don't think any animal or target will even care.

[PatMarlin]

24"… wow!

Never used a drop tube, but I have a broken tube on a powder measure, and that sounds like a fun replacement.

[country gent]

I use a 36" drop tube to charge the cases with the charge along with a very slow trickle of the powder. I then compress to needed depth for the bullet / wad / grease cookie combination. In my 45-90 I use mostly Olde Ensforde 1 1/2 f with a 550 grn bullet. No grease cookie in this load as the bullet carries enough lube. You can go to thicker wads or a filler ( cream of wheat, grex, oat meal, or other fine inert filler) to take up air space and lower charge weight. This does make for a couple extra steps though. I use a wad over powder and between the filler then a thin wad over the filler. A simple dipper can be made to measure the amount of filler needed.