Need Advice: Correct size of NOE expander insert

[Phlier]

Gents,

As many of you guys know, using a Lee Universal Flaring die (like this: https://fsreloading.com/lee-precisio...die-90798.html) with one of NOE's epander plugs (like this: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product...oducts_id=1130) gives you full Lyman M-Die functionality, without having to buy an entire M-Die for every caliber you load for. Thanks, Al, for another handy reloading tool.

Here's my situation...

I've been loading Lee's 356-124-2R bullet sized to .357 for about two months now. While that doesn't seem like very long, it's actually longer than it would appear. My son and I shoot *a lot* of 9mm. A minimum of 1k rounds per week. It isn't uncommon for us to go through 5k per week.

I'm 90% happy with this boolit at this size. The last ten percent is what I'm after. I am getting some leading. And by "some", I mean that at each week's cleaning session (remembering that my gun has seen at least 1,000 rounds since it's previous cleaning), I'm having to spend a bit of time scrubbing out some lead. Never so much that it affects accuracy much, but enough that it does add on some time to the cleaning process.

Since I've been having such great success with this load, I've never taken the time to slug our barrels... until today. FINALLY got around to doing it. My S&W M&P C.O.R.E. 9L slugged out to .3565 and my boy's CZ slugged out to .356.

So I'm going to go up a thou, and start sizing the boolits to .358.

So the question is (and thanks for staying with me up to this point), what size NOE expander plug do I want to use with a .358 boolit? I'm thinking of the .360 x .356 (this one: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product...oducts_id=1130) but wanted to check with you guys first. It's the largest one NOE offers before jumping up to 40 cal.

Thanks for the help!

[runfiverun]

356 would be okay.
one question to think about.
what size are you using now?
and how much case spring back are you getting?
if your pushing 356 and getting 355 you might want to go to 357 to get 356.
this coupled with the larger diameter should get you super close to the 358 your starting with.
checking the crimp would be helpful too.

[Phlier]

I've just been using the standard 9mm (Dillon) expander with my boolits sized to .357. When I pull boolits, military cases (thick walls) will sometimes give me as small as .356, but mostly .3565 from military brass. Other head stamps pull at .357. I'm using Lyman #2, as anything less hard results in significantly more case swaging.

So I'd like to get an expander large enough to use softer alloy without case swaging.

[RogerDat]

I just started using that 360 x 356 NOE expander for loading .38 and have not yet shot anything loaded with it. I can say a bullet sized to .358 fits smoothly yet snug. Without apparent swaging from the case (no bulging or ridge from bullet). Don't know if that helps but I like those NOE expanders enough I'm working on getting them set up on all my turrets.

[emorris]

I use the .359x.355 for my 9mm sized at .358. Get a few different ones and try them, because what works for me may not work for you. A lot of what we do is trial and error anyway.

[runfiverun]

your pretty close to what I'm doing now, except I slipped in my 38 special funnel.
your alloy is just a tick harder than mine, but I'm using the 358 diameter now.
I think the sizer and your extra diameter will help.

[Phlier]

Yeah, shoot. They're only 6.50 each. Think I'll just get the three largest ones and experiment a bit.

Thanks guys.

[Phlier]

your pretty close to what I'm doing now, except I slipped in my 38 special funnel.
your alloy is just a tick harder than mine, but I'm using the 358 diameter now.
I think the sizer and your extra diameter will help.

I'm using a 1050, so my expanding gets done at the primer swaging station. Powder funnel on the 1050 doesn't do anything but bell. I'm sure you knew that, but just in case someone reads this that didn't.

I'll be putting the Lee universal flare die with the NOE expander at the powder cop station on the 1050.

[gloob]

IMO, as long as your size die isn't loosey goosey with jacketed bulelts... as in some of your cases aren't getting good neck tension on a 355 bullet due to the sizer barely getting cases small enough to begin with... you don't need the 3 largest sizes, cuz even the largest one (356/360) works 100% fine with 355 jacketed bullets. The only way you're going to get bullets smaller than that is from Amscor.

If you're getting just a tiny bit of fouling after 1000 rounds, though, beware. If it's a gradual crusty looking buildup at the muzzle that is sorta dark with crusty dry-looking whitish flecks/sheen, this can be caused by lube running out. If your bullets are too small, you get immediate gross lead smears/patches (the grey color of lead), starting in your grooves, and happening anywhere in teh bore, and you will see it right away from the first undersize bullets fired. If it is the former kind of buildup at the muzzle, going softer on alloy might help. You might also consider trying new lubes. But to use a softer alloy, you might need a 357/361 plug to use your harder/thicker military cases, I think. 356/360 is certainly a step in the right direction, though.

If you actually needed a 358 bullet, I would suggest a custom 358/361 expander. But since you slugged your bores, you know all you need is 357. If your expander is same size as your bullets, you can use any reasonable alloy you want with no damage to the bullet.

IME, all button cut bores will pick up a tiny patch of gross, grey lead somewhere's here or there with non GC'd cast bullets. But it doesn't usually move nor get any much bigger over time, if all is well. The only pistols I can shoot with zero fouling are smooth, mandrel forged Glock barrels, using softer alloy to avoid the "antimony wash" buildup at the muzzle. Some of my Glocks will also pick up a tiny shiny lead patch somewhere's in the leade. I assume this is a rough spot in the surface finish. It does not move or change over time. Most of em you can't even tell lead was ever fired in the gun, when using the right bullets.

[Phlier]

IMO, as long as your size die isn't loosey goosey with jacketed bulelts... as in some of your cases aren't getting good neck tension on a 355 bullet due to the sizer barely getting cases small enough to begin with... you don't need the 3 largest sizes, cuz even the largest one (356/360) works 100% fine with 355 jacketed bullets. The only way you're going to get bullets smaller than that is from Amscor.

If you're getting just a tiny bit of fouling after 1000 rounds, though, beware. If it's a gradual crusty looking buildup at the muzzle that is sorta dark with crusty dry-looking whitish flecks/sheen, this can be caused by lube running out. If your bullets are too small, you get immediate gross lead smears/patches (the grey color of lead), starting in your grooves, and happening anywhere in teh bore, and you will see it right away from the first undersize bullets fired. If it is the former kind of buildup at the muzzle, going softer on alloy might help. You might also consider trying new lubes. But to use a softer alloy, you might need a 357/361 plug to use your harder/thicker military cases, I think. 356/360 is certainly a step in the right direction, though.

If you actually needed a 358 bullet, I would suggest a custom 358/361 expander. But since you slugged your bores, you know all you need is 357. If your expander is same size as your bullets, you can use any reasonable alloy you want with no damage to the bullet.

IME, all button cut bores will pick up a tiny patch of gross, grey lead somewhere's here or there with non GC'd cast bullets. But it doesn't usually move nor get any much bigger over time, if all is well. The only pistols I can shoot with zero fouling are smooth, mandrel forged Glock barrels, using softer alloy to avoid the "antimony wash" buildup at the muzzle. Some of my Glocks will also pick up a tiny shiny lead patch somewhere's in the leade. I assume this is a rough spot in the surface finish. It does not move or change over time. Most of em you can't even tell lead was ever fired in the gun, when using the right bullets.

Great stuff, gloob, thank you.

"IME, all button cut bores will pick up a tiny patch of gross, grey lead somewhere's here or there with non GC'd cast bullets. But it doesn't usually move nor get any much bigger over time, if all is well." This pretty well sums up what I'm seeing in both of our 9mm's. The barrel looks the same inside at the 100 round point as it does after 1,000 rounds. Just a few streaks here and there that never get bigger. The streaks are centrally located on the grooves, with little to no lead located at the groove/land junction.

Since I know I have a recipe that is giving me pretty good results, i think I'll experiment a bit, as I can always go back to my baseline load that I'm pretty happy with overall. The complaints I have about my current load are pretty nit picky... I'll occasionally get a flier (which I believe to be the result of some case swaging done from some of the thicker walled military brass), the smoke (which I think I can solve by switching to BLL and applying much thinner than I'm currently doing), and the lead streaks in the barrel.

I'm thinking I'll start by keeping everything the same, except add in the .356/.360 expander and lube with BLL instead of 45/45/10. Load and shoot a few of 'em, and see how they work. I'm hoping that will get rid of the occasional military brass flier and reduce some of the smoke. If it reduces the lead streaks, that would be the proverbial icing, as the leading I'm currently getting really isn't a problem, just an annoyance. Nothing a couple of strokes with Chore Boy doesn't take care of. Might load up a few FMJ's to shoot at the end of each session, too.

Edit: After I get my 9mm load completely dialed in, I'll start working on casting for my Glock 42. Would be great to get some advice/help/pointers from someone that has some experience casting for stock Glock barrels.

[gloob]

Main difference in a Glock barrel, IME, is that what causes minor fouling in your average gun barrel will likely be very much worse in a Glock barrel.

So in practice, your first time shooting a new cast load through a glock, you really need to shoot just one bullet, then unload and field strip the gun to check what happened.

Bullets don't bump up in the Glock bore, at all, and you want the entire driving band to be full size and slightly larger than the groove diameter. You're already well aware of case-swaging, so you should have pretty smooth sailing and quickly get dialed in. Just be prepared for your first outing to end at shot number 1.

Theoretically, 380 should be more likely to work without any special tweaking, because the cases are easier on the bullet. I don't load cast for 380. I don't shoot my GF's Keltec knockoff Ruger enough to bother. Her Bersa was a shooter, but cast bullets out of a blowback pistol is a ridiculous smoky mess.

[Phlier]

And again, more great information, gloob, thank you much for your help!

I will most likely pick a non tumble lube design boolit for the Glock 42, then use my old Ideal 45 lubrasizer for all my 380 Auto boolits. Think I'll search around a bit... see if I can find a mold that guys are using successfully in Glock 380 Auto guns.