Lyman 457122 in a 45 muzzleloader

[pupsdad]

My cousin shoots the Lyman 457122 in his muzzleloader. He has killed several whitetail doing this no sabots just lubed pure lead loads and shoots. Ever try this or seen it done?

[451whitworth]

I've done it 4 times

[Good Cheer]

#457124 works well in my New Englander with lanolin-olive oil-beeswax loob and a 1/2" punched card over the powder. Haven't shot a deer with it but it's a caseless ammo 45-90 shooting a soft lead boolit. No doubt what the result would be if I took it hunting.

[Czech_too]

Off the topic of the OP, but take a look at the Lyman 445599,
use one of the proper size dia. for your rifles bore though.

[Saxtonyoung]

I shot the 457122 several times in my Omega 45 cal but I much preferred the 457193 with a 100 grains of 777 because I got better accuracy.I would size and lube them to .450 for a slip fit bullet.I have loaded both as a bare bullet and also with the bottom half of a 45 sabot underneath, kind of like a homemade powerbelt .2" groups at a 100 yards is common and has proven itself on several deer. This load kicks like a mule and is overkill for deer but I thought someday I would use it on larger game.

[Buckshot]

.............Of course it depends upon a couple things, like your bore & groove, and for the longer heavier slugs, a faster then normal twist usually found in a MLer is required for best accuracy. The British used muzzle loaders in the first and second world invitational matches.



These are the bullets I use in both my rifles of 45 caliber. They're swaged and then paper patched to .451" and weigh 530 grs. Although both rifles also do very well with the Lyman 457121 which weighs 475 grs and is a grease grooved slug that fall from the mould at .451"



This is the Rigby type rifle built from a kit from Pecatonica River. It has a 34" octagon Green Mountain barrel.



The other rifle is a Parker-Hale Whitworth rifle. The Rigby type has a regular 45 cal bbl of .450" x .457" with an 18" twist. The above Whitworth has it's namesake bore.



The Whitworth is .451" x .470" with a 20" twist.



All of these have been fired in the Whitworth. A couple have been fired in the Rigby, namely the far right is the Lyman 457121 and drops at the right OD for both. The Saeco #745 and the Lyman Postell have been fired in the Rigby, but they have to lube-sized .457" and then run up through a Lee type push through size die. When I bought the Whitworth there was a 2 piece swage die available and using it with most any bullet size from .457" to .465", allows it to be shot in the Whitworth.

.................Buckshot

[Good Cheer]

This sure is making me want to get a longer barrel for .45 rifle molds.
Been pondering on a New Englander that I'm not using that could be a very nice .458 bore.
Got the peep sight to fit it but not too sure about the astigmatism.

[54bore]

This sure is making me want to get a longer barrel for .45 rifle molds.
Been pondering on a New Englander that I'm not using that could be a very nice .458 bore.
Got the peep sight to fit it but not too sure about the astigmatism.

I hear ya Good Cheer!! Idahoron told me about the Whitworth rifle, then i watched a video on it, i would LOVE to have one!!!

Hey Buckshot, That is a dandy looking Parker Hale Whitworth you have there!! Do you swage to get the Hex shape? Can you buy a mold shaped like that? This is WAY out of my league, but VERY interesting to me!!

[Buckshot]

I hear ya Good Cheer!! Hey Buckshot, That is a dandy looking Parker Hale Whitworth you have there!! Do you swage to get the Hex shape? Can you buy a mold shaped like that? This is WAY out of my league, but VERY interesting to me!!

There is no magic to the Whitworth hexagonal bore shape. It's the fast twist that provided the accuracy he was looking for. If that form WAS magic they'd still be using it today. However that form was patented and was bypassed by Alexander Henry. What he did was to add lands at the intersections of the flats. That also fell from grace as it was realized that a rifled ROUND hole was just as good, and much easier to manufacture. However it was used in the 577-450 Martini-Henry rifle.

Of all the bullets fired by a Whitworth, the vast majority by a considerable margin were the boring common old cylindrical slugs we all use these days. Only the wealthy in the Whitworth's heyday could afford the freight for true hexagonal bullets. However, to answer your question then yes there WAS a mould once made to produce a true fully hexagonal slug (with grease grooves) for the Whitworth. In my post above it is 5th from the left. It was made by a gentleman named Leon Kranen, of Great Briton. Due to the hexagonal shape and it ALSO having the 20" twist you cannot use a common 2 block mould. If you DID somehow happen to make such a mould, after you poured a slug you wouldn't be able to open the blocks. Here's a photo of one:



Due to it's skewed shape, the ingenious Mr Kranen included a circular captured pin that carries part of the shape, and will rotate upon the opening of the blocks to allow the slug to be released. There was one for sale a little over a year ago and the price was about 250 Euros. I think that included the sizer (the disc to the right). A fascinating piece of equipment and I'd love to have one, just to have it. But at that price I can learn to do without!

As I mentioned, a regular conical bullet will work just as well without all the fuss and bother. All you need is a slug of .451" OD, or a .457" design that you can lube-size, and then run up through a Lee type .451" push through die. If you're wanting to paper patch you'll need a bullet of .443" or a tad larger if you're going to use 9# airmail paper.

When I bought my Whitworth, it came with a wadcutter that I DO use:



It also came with a 2 piece set of swage blocks to swage a somewhat 'Blurred' version of a hexagonal bullet, but to get the best rendering you have to use a slug of about .468" OD. You also have to use a hydraulic press or a mojo vise to have it work correctly. It's more of a novelty then anything else. The design below was done through a group buy on the British & Militaria board for the 577-450 Martini:



It drops a 490gr hollow based slug of .470" diameter. It DOES work okay in the Whitworth when swagged hex, but both the Lyman Postell or the Saeco #745 will better it, and they DON'T have to be swagged! Just lube-sized and reduced to .451". Shooting to 200 yards is where the 475gr Lyman 457121-PH shines, and it drops from the mould ready for lubing and shooting. When the base of the soft lead slug see's the big light, it handsomely upsets to assume the shape of the bore.

If someone was wanting a long range relatively powerful muzzle loading rifle, then the kit from Pecatonica River would be the road to follow. All the above is of course only my opinion.

................Buckshot

[Good Cheer]

I went with 24" twist when the New Englander was converted to .458 bore... four years ago maybe? Because of wanting to use boolits of approximate 400 grains and wanting the twist to be as slow as I was comfortable with. Thinking about a longer barrel, reckon if you get a longer barrel for longer range it naturally follows that you need longer boolits and a tighter twist. (?)

Besides a few light, medium and heavy 45-70 boolit molds I have a 457121 that's the larger diameter produced by Lymans, having swapped someone straight up that needed the smaller diameter. It could work well paper patched and sized to .457 in a longer .458 bore barrel.

Buckshot, what kind of shooting have you gotten using 400-450 grain boolits in the 20" twist?
I'm leaning towards getting a longer barrel. But I'd best figger out how slow of a twist will do what.

[Buckshot]

.............. This is a typical group fired at 100 yards. It was a 530gr cup based swaged .443" slug, and paper patched to .451" over 85.0 grs of Elephant 2Fg. I have shot at steel targets out to 600 yards. One time in Sierra Vista, AZ when my brother & family lived there. A very nice facility BTW. They had hanging steel 1'x1' plates at each 100 yard interval. I took 10 deliberate shots and hit it 4 times. The rangemaster was spotting for me and I came very close on a few other shots. The only other fairly long range shooting was just outside Topaz Lake, NV at a rather informal range. There was a 1' wide x 18" long hanging plate at a lazar ranged 465 yards. The only issue was that we had what the locals called a Washoe Zephyr in progress. It was blowing from right to left. I called it a hurricane. The issue was trying to figure out how much to hold off to the right to connect. Also loading the rifle was a real pill as everything had to stay in the range box or it would get blown off the picnic table we were using I did manage to connect a couple times. However it really wasn't a whole lot of fun to tell the truth.

I've read that it can take the slug a couple hundred yards to "settle down". I wouldn't know about that and do not know if it is because of the twist or of the hexagonal shape of the slug. Nor do I have a P-H Volunteer rifle to compare it to, but apparently with it's Henry type rifling it's supposed to be somewhat more accurate at the closer (200 yards) ranges.

...............Buckshot

[Good Cheer]

Settling down is part of whats got me scratching my head on the lighter boolits of about 400-450 grains.
With #457124 and 90 grains FFg it's creeping up on 1300FPS in the 26" barrel New Englander so it is slowing down to transonic before traveling very far. And I don't have the info in hand (yet) to try to figure how much that transition is going to matter and what the slowest twist would be that I'd care to try in a longer barrel.
Oh well. Burning powder and rediscovering what was forgotten is the best way to learn. And besides, it's fun!

[54bore]

Buckshot, THANK YOU For sharing, VERY VERY interesting stuff!!

[54bore]

Buckshot, I just went to Pecatonica's web sight and I can't find anything on that? It is a kit you say? I might end up needing one!

[Buckshot]

Buckshot, I just went to Pecatonica's web sight and I can't find anything on that? It is a kit you say? I might end up needing one!

Here ya go:

http://www.longrifles-pr.com/english.shtml

This is what you get in the kit:

Green Mountain Barrel 1" x 34"$185.00
Appropriate Lock L & R Bar Perc.$100.00
English Bar $8.00
Single Trigger $20.00
Appropriate Breech Plug English Hook$45.00 Recommended
ButtplateCheckered Steel $24.00
Recommended Trigger guard Steel $23.00
Lock Screws(1) $1.75
Tang Screws(1) $1.75
Barrel Lugs(1 )$5.00
Barrel Keys (or Pins)(1) $5.00
Escutcheons(2) $10.00
Lock Bolt Inlay $6.00
Sunburst Grip Cap $10.00
Nipple $3.00
Misc. Screws $1.50
Stock Inletting & Drilling $47.50 ---------
Parts Total: (not incl. *optional items)$496.00

If I may make a comment, everything they provided was very nice (the checkered buttplate especially so). While the L&R lock is adequate, it really isn't what a rifle like this should have. What you want is a Davis 3 screw English Rigby lock. This lock allows the sear to rotate on a precision pin instead of on a bridle screw shank like the L&R Lock does. You can order the Davis lock from these folks: http://www.thegunworks.com/custprodg...Cat2Option=yes
for $120 vs the $100 for the L&R lock. On the L&R lock the sear rotates on one of the bridle screw shanks. The Davis is THE way to go. Pecatonica doesn't list the Davis lock, so if you were going to have them do the inletting, I'd suggest you call them about supplying them with the Davis lock instead of the L&R, and let them inlet for the Davis.

I also had Pecatonica do the following:

Install breech plug in barrel- plug is fitted tight against the inside shoulder of barrel with the tang against the barrel. $20.00 Drill & tap barrel for breech plug $25.00

[Saxtonyoung]

I called Pecatonica a couple weeks ago and he said they no longer Have the 1" 45 cal with a 1 - 18 twist available.Green Mountain quit making these barrels a few years ago. I bought the last 3 1" 40 cal with 1-16 twist that Track of the Wolf had about 12 years ago. If you have a another good source for these fast twist barrels ,I'm interested.

[Buckshot]

These are some other photos:



In this photo the blow out plug hadn't been added yet. Right photo is the rifle after getting it put together. As you can see there are no sights on it yet.



For a front sight I used a windage adjustable unit from a Swedish Ljungman Ag42B semi-auto. It looks close to period correct, plus the blades come in 5 different heights. I filed the base to match the barrel flats and then soldered it on. It's set back a ways which was common as over time the muzzle might need to be 'Freshed Up' and having the fornt sight set back a little allowed for that.



Then I decided I wanted to add a tang sight to it. The original tang was too short, so I cut it off ahead of the screw and welded on a piece of 1/2" x 1/8" hot rolled steel, filed it to shape and then silver soldered on a lug for the tang sight, and inletted it.



I had a relatively inexpensive Italian tang sight. I cut off it's base, then fabbed up a replacement. I took it to a local welding shop and had them TiG weld them together. I smoothed them up and then heat blued it.



Then I drilled a hole through the base, clamped it to the lug, spotted it and then drilled a hole through the lug. Then I threaded the right leg of the base, turned the brass knob on the lathe, fitting a steel rod to it, and then threading that so as to mount the tang sight to the base lug.

Since these were match rifles they had no provision for a ram rod. However makers DID produce similar rifles for hunting which DID have ramrods fitted under the barrel. If this is what you had in mind (hunting) you certainly can do the same, in addition to adding you own barrel mounted hunting type sights. Pecatonica will also cut the dovetails for you.

.................Buckshot