Am I being unreasonable? Shield machining flaw...

[Idaho45guy]

I'm on another gun forum that seems to have been overrun by *******s who do nothing but criticize and insult other members a majority of the time. Every time someone posts a concern, there is the usual crowd that post personal insults. Most of the time I can ignore it, but this time I'm wondering if they are making some valid points.

This place seems far more reasonable and mature, so I'll bring the discussion here...

Last Summer, I bought a brand new S&W Shield 9mm Performance Center model. I read all of the reviews and owned two other S&W M&P pistols; a compact and full size, both in .40 S&W. Both pistols were very accurate and flawless (well, I had to send the fullsize back to S&W due to FTE issues a week after I bought it, but it was repaired and sent back within two weeks and has been perfect since. That was ten years ago...)

The M&P40 compact is scary accurate.

So, I go to my local gun shop and handle the pistol, look it over(but didn't field strip it), and plunk down the $480 with tax for the super duper ported and enhanced PC model.

I take it to the range a week or so later and notice racking the slide feels "off". It is heavy and gritty. I fire a magazine full at 7yds and get around an inch or less group. Not bad for my first magazine full on a new pistol. I proceed to fire around 75 rds that day and notice that the slide still doesn't feel right.

I back up to around 15yds and the groups open up considerably to around 4". I go back to the 25yd line and with a bench rest they are 8". Something is definitely wrong. ALL of my pistols will do 2" or less at 25yds if I do my part. Reviews of this pistol were glowing and showing most people getting 2" to 3" groups at that distance with a rest.

I get home and field strip it and inspect it. Uh oh. Barrel has some obvious machining issues.

Attachment 184378

I call S&W customer service and get a female. I explain to her politely what the issue is and she tries to tell me that the Shield is not intended as a target pistol and the accuracy is fine. That pissed me off. I ask to speak to a supervisor. I then explain to him that the barrel is obviously flawed and the accuracy reflects that flaw. He agrees to send me the Fedex label so I can ship it back.

I send it back in, expecting it to be returned within a couple of weeks based upon my prior S&W experience. Nope, after a month, I get concerned. I call S&W and they said it is still there and not sure when it will be returned. A month after that, it shows up. Yep, two months to do a 30 second barrel swap.

I field strip it and do a cursory inspection of the top of the barrel. Looks good...

Attachment 184379

I then take it back to the range. Same acceptable results at 7yds. I back up to 25yds with a rest and they improved 100% to around 4" at 25yds. Not great, but acceptable for a pocket gun. However, other Shield owners are getting 2-3" at the same distance and I paid $100 more for the PC version.

I clean the pistol and notice the crown of the replacement barrel is not right. There are a couple of machining marks on it. S&W actually replaced my grossly flawed barrel with another flawed barrel, though not as bad. I don't think the crown flaws are affecting accuracy, however.

But, the fact that they replaced a flawed barrel with another flawed barrel tells me that S&W is having some serious QC issues. I worked as a CNC operator for Ruger for a few months in between careers. The nicks in the crown of the "new" barrel are not acceptable...

Attachment 184380

Having zero confidence that S&W was capable of sending me a non-flawed replacement barrel, I started searching for aftermarket barrels for the Shield. They don't exist. I tried finding any barrel for the Shield, ported or non-ported. They don't exist from S&W or the aftermarket. That struck me as odd for the most popular CCW gun in recent years. Heck, I found one for my M&P40 Compact and ordered it and it arrived perfectly machined for $89.

I was just tired of the whole thing and put the issue on the back burner until Tuesday. I sent an email to S&W Customer Service explaining what had happened, included pictures, and asked if they would cover a cosmetic flaw and if I had to send the entire pistol back in, and if I did, what is the expected turn around time.

Their response was a dry two sentence statement that said they would have to have the entire firearm sent back. There was no acknowledgement of my frustration, no answer as to turn around time, no apology, no empathy, nothing that could be construed as good customer service.

I worked seven years in customer service for the #1 rated customer service department in the insurance industry. I have had extensive training in customer service communication and how to interact with customers via email, business letters, and over the phone. My experience with S&W has been a case study in what NOT to do when dealing with customers. Simply awful.

So, now I am faced with either sending the gun back for another attempt at them installing an acceptable barrel, or just selling it at a loss and starting over with another pistol from anyone but S&W. Pretty sure I'll just sell the pistol since it is providing barely acceptable accuracy and the crown flaw is nothing that would bother most gun owners.

Just wondering if I am being unreasonable in my expectations of customer service and accuracy/machining flaws.

[Tackleberry41]

Not to be insulting, but you might be expecting a bit much. Not in expecting a decently built gun, but accuracy. I have a 9mm Shield. Its a short barreled gun, no different than the stubby barrel on my snub nose 357. I have never gotten great accuracy out of mine, its acceptable for the ranges I would be using it at. Its an up close and personal weapon not a 25yd benchrest target gun. My old Browning HP copy will eat out the center of a target all day, but it has several more inches of barrel and longer sight radius. The 7-10yds common in self defense, I have little doubt the shield could put the mag in a decent circle on a guys chest. All I have done to it is clean up the trigger, keep it in my center console.

They did screw up the original barrel, and that just seems to be the way things are anymore, QC no longer exists. Get it in a box and moved out of inventory, customer service will deal with those later...maybe. Its funny how customer service works. I have an old S&W break top, and it was standard service in 1919 for them to basically rebuild a gun sent in for repair with a fresh bluing job, now your lucky if they dont spit in the box before sending it to you. I was told in another forum, that basically the value of that old breaktop was ruined by S&W when the factory refinished it. Not bubba in his garage, but the factory ruined it, like you were given an option. The 'experts' in that forum were pretty close to insulting. Guess I didnt hang around long enough for things to escalate. I saw the way things were heading and moved on.

[scattershot]

I'd say, if the accuracy is acceptable to you, just live with it. QC is a sometime thing these days. Doesn't make it right, but that's the way it is. If you were going to go to the expense of buying a new barrel, you might look into having a gunsmith re-crown that one.

[Tom W.]

I met a man at the range the other week who said that the Shield was aptly named. His wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside, but the noise would distract a bad guy enough to allow him to get his good pistol out.

[johnson1942]

you have some valid concerns and welcome to the modern world of mass production and the way companys treat you. i believe most guns from the factory can be worked over by guys like you and me to make them much better. i have 4 uberti cowboy guns and had to work over two of them at my own expense to make them what they should of been when they came through the factory line. my son has a wonderful remington 1911 but we had to polish the bottom of the throat to make it reliable and we polished the rails also to make it smoother. now it is as it should have been when it left the factory. my friends s and w (new) had to have major repair to the front sight to even shoot it. the only gun ive bought that i was 100 percent satisfied with was my little ruger 38 special pocket revolver. it is perfect in every way from the factory. rebuild your gun the way you want it and you then will love to own and shoot it. with taylor arms on my uberti colts, they made me pay for the parts to fix the dam thing even though i bought it from them. i probably know more about that gun then their so called gun smith. i love the gun now but they were of no help.

[Soundguy]

I'm on another gun forum that seems to have been overrun by *******s who do nothing but criticize and insult other members a majority of the time.

Yup... I'm on gunboards too.

[dverna]

Fixing the crown is not expensive and you can do it yourself.

The gun as is, is giving acceptable accuracy for that platform.

Their CS looks to be poor but not much you can do...maybe send a nice hand written letter to the CEO.

Don Verna

[Hamish]

Idaho,

Im a tad surprised by the responses. No, the original barrel was not acceptable, and no, the replacement barrel is not acceptable. Period. You didn't pay full price for dings in the barrel and to get twirled around by the manufacturer.

I hear they're planning to change the name of the company too.

[turtlezx]

work up some loads and see if the accuracy improves
shouldnt be too hard to drop 1" in group size

[rototerrier]

Everything you've said and done are reasonable to me. That said, I'd have dougguy here on the forums work his magic on it. You'll have to pay a little but at least you'll know it's done and done right and done quickly. I've sent him 2 and couldn't be happier. 1 walther 45 and 1 xd 45.

[telebasher]

I've began wondering as of late if the workers who flunk out at the fast food/burger bars are being hired at some of our favorite firearms manufacturers. If they can't make a good burger consistently why do we expect them to produce a decent quality firearm.

[rototerrier]

I'm fairly certain I've spoken with this same rude woman about a year ago. Was getting light strikes on an R8 and she told me to use softer primers. I just hung up and fixed it myself using the spent primer shim mod. Considering it was a known issue, i was pretty displeased with her response. She didn't care in the least. Would appear nothing has changed.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I think I am familiar with the forum you're referring to, and your assessment is correct. It was bad when I left a couple of years ago, and apparently hasn't improved.

Unfortunate situation about your S&W pistol. Poor customer service and relations, and perhaps the decline of a great company.

I don't think that you are unreasonable. Your descriptive skills are very good, and I think that if you lay it all out in writing (as you have done here) include photos, and give them another chance they will make it right.

That having been said, I have to agree with some of those who have already posted, that it is, after all, a pocket-type pistol and the accuracy level that you are currently experiencing is about par for the course. With any make and model of firearm you will encounter differences in the level from one specimen to another--no two things are exactly alike. It's not at all strange that a friend's pistol might perform slightly better than yours. The test question would be that if you borrowed a friend's pistol and shot it, could you shoot it better than you shoot your pistol? Also, sometimes, a particular model of a pistol just isn't right for a certain individual, and this one might not be right for you.

As for the barrel crown nicks, looking at your photo, it appears that the one on the right at 3 o'clock is certainly bad enough to effect accuracy. Concerning the availability of after market barrels, I'm sure that eventually someone will see the opportunity to make and sell some, and you wouldn't be the only potential customer. I had a 1911 with a poor barrel and replaced it with a Kart barrel. What a difference! But, S&W should make it right, and I think that given a good explanation, as you have done here, and a second chance, they will.

Best wishes.

DG

[Multigunner]

I agree that the ding in the crown at 3 o'clock could affect accuracy. Not so much what is visible of the ding but due to the fact that a deep ding on the outside can upset metal on the inside.
I once used a tube cutter to mark a shortened SMLE barrel to be filed down at the muzzle for a set back front sight ring base and when I looked down the muzzle I found a very pronounced raised ring on the inside from the fairly light pressure of the tube cutter on the outside. The ridge was on the tops of the lands as well as in the bottom of the grooves.

If you wish to invest the time in trying to get better accuracy from this barrel recrowning is the first obvious step. if there is a raised lump on the inside perhaps lead lapping is called for.

I do agree that the company did not do right by you.

[rintinglen]

I think if it was I, I would simply crown that barrel myself, and then give it a try.
Truth to tell, none of the major firearms manufacturers seem to have glowing reputations for QC these days. My S&W 69 44 Mag leads like nobody's business and came with chamber throats that were smaller than the groove diameter. Others have reported difficulties with Rem-lin lever guns.
Ruger is my personal bane. Of the Last 6 Ruger Revolvers I have purchased, three have gone back to the factory for repair and a fourth almost made the the trip, but I did some gunsmithing of my own and fixed the problem myself. Careful pre-purchase inspection of the type once reserved for used cars being sold by brazen fellows in loud sports coats seems to be de riguer these days. Sad, but when they are selling millions, even a half percent failure rate will show up in the thousands.

[Tackleberry41]

I really doubt most companies do any QC any more. Its not just guns. Went with a friend to a music store he wanted a new guitar. Picked thru a rack of a dozen same model guitar, only 3 would be usable out of the box, another half or so could be fixed, the rest should never have been put in a box. Its not just cheap stuff either. Gibson used to be THE name, now its move inventory and all the guys who knew how to build them left. The name sells them and so long as no more than a certain percentage came back to the factory, they will still make money. Some companies do it on purpose. Microsoft took a huge hit on the xbox360. Engineers warned them, they will fail, they need fixed. But Christmas was coming and did not want to lose market share to Sony, so shipped them anyways. It was over a billion in losses for all the returns. The boxes used to ship them came to be known as coffins, know somebody who sent 5 of them back. Mine got the red ring of death, I called they told me the cost for them to look at it. They were tired of eating them, would cost half the cost of a new play station, and would fail again, I used it for target practice.

Some of the QC issues were a bit glaring, like the Remington 9mm debacle. Nobody at the factory noticed the rear sight falling out? Or that you couldn't rack the slide? Be like GM or Ford pushing cars that wont run onto the truck to take to dealers. Or budweiser shipping obviously leaking cans. I bought a new Uberti S&W break top copy, $1000, had to fix it, they never even bothered to reply. Or the winchester bulk shells I got at wal mart sold as 1 1/8oz, but only had 1 oz of shot in them. Guess nobody was supposed to notice.

The crown is an easy fix, no shouldn't have to, but how many times you want to send it back. I bought a crowning tool off midway for $100. Its easily paid for itself. I buy a surplus rifle, its gets a new crown.

Not sure about the suggestion on finding a good load for the shield. Yea for range use, its fine. But for carry, most would say run something factory. A shield is more of a carry gun than a blasting at the range gun. Its not like mine key holes or misses the target, its just not my other 9mm, but also a little easier to carry, and would be less upset if something happened to it.

[SteelHorseCowboy]

Have to say, I don't think you're being unreasonable in your expectations for an unblemished gun or decent CS, especially considering you ponied up the extra coin for a PC.

I do think you're being a bit demanding in accuracy though. What kind of groups does S&W say it should produce at 25 yards?

I'd send it back and ask for a completely unblemished barrel. Then if you still don't like it, or they don't satisfy you, or you're just disgusted by the whole experience, then go ahead and ditch it.

FWIW, I gave away a S&W 642 because I was so disgusted with the (lack of) quality. Well, there was that, and all my stepson had for self defense was a stick that he broke on the last crackhead that tried to get in his house. But he immediately tried to trade it back to me for my shotgun, if that means anything.

[Blackwater]

One tip that might make a difference to you. Ammo can make a huge difference in the accuracy a gun gives you. Good ammo usually (but not always) shoots best. Whatever you were shooting, try some other brands and types of ammo. See what happens then, before you go making your judgments. It really CAN make a large difference.

Also, I don't know how good a shot you are, or whether your groups were fired from a good rest, but when testing a gun's accuracy, it's best to take all the human element out of it that's possible to remove. This, then, tests the gun rather than the shooter. And BTW, a buddy of mine has one, and his is scary accurate. He shoots little finger tip sized rocks at 15-20 yds. with it regularly. But it also won't do it with just any ammo, and I forget what brand works best for him, or I'd pass it on in hopes it would help you with yours.

But each gun is a law unto itself. They're made by many machinings and no two are quite exactly alike. Also, they can be assembled by different assemblers, and some of those are better and more careful and notice more about how parts fit than others of the same make and model. So just becasue my buddy got lucky with his doesn't mean yours isn't a dog. But sounds to me like it might at least be middle of the road now. 4" at 25 yds ain't bad shootin' for offhand shooting with most pistols. And the small guns ARE harder to shoot for most folks, so .... it's probably fine now as long as it's feeding reliably. You may have greater expectations and hopes than might be appropriate for a gun of this type. I'd have a hard time doing 4" at 25 with my little .380. My eyesight won't let me focus on my sights like I once could, and the longer the distance, the bigger the problem I have with that. This gittin' old ain't a whole lotta' fun sometimes, but it sure beats the other option!

[Idaho45guy]

Thanks for all of the reasonable replies!

Had I received the pistol in the condition it is in now, I would not have raised a fuss over 4" at 25yds. But the fact that I sent it back for a flawed barrel and they returned it to me with another flawed barrel really upset me.

This was the first 9mm I've owned since 1986. Thought it was time I got one for pocket carry. I think I'll sell this one and pick up a Walther or XDS in .40 S&W...

[B. Lumpkin]

4 inches at 25 yards with non-tailored ammo from that gun really isn't bad at all. I'd ask those fellas getting 2 inch groups at 25 yards to post up their targets...signed by witness...on video, lol.

However, the machining flaws are disconcerting and I wouldn't be happy with them either.