How big is the market?

[MUSTANG]

Don't let the naysayers cause too much sway. The concept would really expand if we could see the US return to the days of "The Parlor Rifle".

[dtknowles]

Don't let the naysayers cause too much sway. The concept would really expand if we could see the US return to the days of "The Parlor Rifle".

I feel like if I can bring this thing to market it could be like the Ruger 10/22. Something functional that is very adaptable to after market enhancement.

It might always be sort of a toy, not really a serious gun but maybe some people will surprise me. The design might have more headroom than planned, might details are still not settled, particularly how to bed the for end. Right now that is a complete unknown. What if I used a Contender-esque fore end attachment?

Tim

[Bulldogger]

I feel like if I can bring this thing to market it could be like the Ruger 10/22. Something functional that is very adaptable to after market enhancement.

It might always be sort of a toy, not really a serious gun but maybe some people will surprise me. The design might have more headroom than planned, might details are still not settled, particularly how to bed the for end. Right now that is a complete unknown. What if I used a Contender-esque fore end attachment?

Tim

In my mind I saw/assumed a simple fore end attachment such as that, for simplicity and cost.

The action and barrel link are the only critical parts.

I would still buy one if the stock and other fixtures were made from 5/4"x5" maple, and straight sided as well. It's a training and bug out rifle.

I could accept a wire buttstock like some of the survival rifles, with some sort of simple pad, if the length could be changed without totally screwing it up (i.e. shorter for child training).

BDGR

[dverna]

In my mind I saw/assumed a simple fore end attachment such as that, for simplicity and cost.

The action and barrel link are the only critical parts.


I would still buy one if the stock and other fixtures were made from 5/4"x5" maple, and straight sided as well. It's a training and bug out rifle.

I could accept a wire buttstock like some of the survival rifles, with some sort of simple pad, if the length could be changed without totally screwing it up (i.e. shorter for child training).

BDGR

If the rear stock attachment was made in such a way that an AR15 stock could be attached, it would allow users to upgrade at a later date. They go on sale regularly and are not too expensive.

Don Verna

[quilbilly]

Like your quotes. That said, they came from wealthy people whose bodyguards were all carrying edged weapon.

As far as the bunny gun, the liability insurance might cost a $100 per firearm.

Probably right so add another $150 to the price. I would buy one in 44 sp and I already have a "bunny gun", a T/C carbine from the Custom Shop in 9mm Luger. My little carbine brings a smile to everyone's face when they shoot it realizing it is "minute of pop can" at over 100 yards with iron sights. I have always called mine my little "rook rifle". Worth noting is that a 135 gr RF plain base can do a lot of things at a terminal velocity of 900 fps at 100 yards (ask any muzzleloader deer hunter who uses patched round ball).

[sharps4590]

There is a reason Rook rifles and garden guns were so popular in England and on the Continent, respectively. The acceptance of the 22LR in both places pretty well killed them off. I have a Jeffery #2 Champion Rook rifle, re-lined to 25-20, (bore was a sewer pipe), and I love it.

Things always cycle whether at a predictable rate or not. It's been over 80 years since small, centerfire cartridges, such as handgun cartridges, were popular in rifles. As many guys as I read and hear about using them in some kind of single shot rifle today it may be that it has finally come back around. Don't put me down for one however. At $200 it won't compare to my Jeffrey, nor is it supposed to.

[Artful]

So Tim - notice your future customers want the frame sized to take 45 colt/45 acp/ 410 cartridges - I'd like that size as well as 38spl/357mag - it would be good if it could take 357 Max as well - the rolling block is a strong action when made of modern materials.

It wouldn't add much to enlarge action to accommodate some larger cartridges, and opens a lot more possibilities to your customers. Look at the handy Ruger #3 - not that much weight and that action handles most anything commercial. Myself I'd only look at making it handle rimmed cartridges - working with rimless designs adds another layer of complexity IMHO. Although the original Remington Rolling blocks were used in 7x57, 7.65x53, etc so know it can be done.

[Artful]

If the rear stock attachment was made in such a way that an AR15 stock could be attached, it would allow users to upgrade at a later date. They go on sale regularly and are not too expensive.

Don Verna

That's a good idea - and if it took the pistol grip (just a hole drilled in the action) it could be a selling point as well.

[Bigslug]

Intrigued for .357 Mag. Would suggest a platform that can integrate existing sights - Lyman 17A, Williams or Marbles peeps, etc...

Cantilever scope mount angling to the rear?

[jumbeaux]

Darn I would love a 32 S&W L, a 38 Special and a 45 Colt...

rick

[Tracy]

I'm envisioning something similar to the old Remington Model 6, but in centerfire. I would definitely prefer steel, and cartridges no more powerful than .32 S&WL, .32-20 or .38 Special. I'm afraid making it capable of handling .357 Mag and cartridges of like power would make it too large.
I'm a big fan of the 80% concept, too.

[Artful]

Well if the Savage Model 24V was capable of 357 Max, 30-30, 222, 223, 44 magnum etc.
I don't think you need a heavy weight to handle 357 Mag and like powered. And if large enough for .410/45 colt etc it opens up a much larger market.

[GoodOlBoy]

Tim I know you are getting kinda flooded with caliber ideas, many of which don't fit into the frame width you initially mentioned (38 spec and lower), or the pressure levels you initially mentioned. I can't just declare that I will be able to afford one, even at the price point you are talking about (still fighting SS Disability), but I was curious about the possibility of a 32-20 Winchester. Rim and base diameter are inside of spec, and CUP is 1000 less than 38 special. For me I've always loved the old 32-20, even though I have never gotten to own one myself, and think it would be an excellent bunny gun...

Thanks, and God Bless.

Richard

[Lonegun1894]

I would love one in .38 Spl, and would even promise to not load it up to anywhere near .357 levels. I would have one request though, that may get me slapped by a few here. How would you feel about a .38 Spl rifle with iron sights, and... a barrel between 32-36" long, or something else kinda overly long? I know it wouldn't be as handy as the 16-18" barrels many would want, but it would let us load it down to around 500-600 fps and keep the noise down to pellet gun levels for doing some quiet small game hunting without the need for a suppressor (and tax stamp). Heck, I'd gladly pay a bit extra for the extra long barrel, and especially if it had a steel receiver.

I just looked at Track of the Wolf for their barrel liners with the thought of lining a cheap Yildiz (sp?) .410 shotgun with a liner to convert it to .38 Spl, and the 28" liner I would need, not counting shipping, labor, the chamber reamer, etc, would cost me $174, so your $200 price point is very attractive, even if it was closer to $300.

[bradley.moss72]

I believe something that you need to consider is building it strong. There is always gonna be someone trying to squeeze​ a bottlenecked cartridge into your action platform. A 223/5.56 is the same case diameter as the body of a 357 mag., so just making it "only big enough for a 357" can leave a few holes in your plan on keeping it low pressure and low liability.

BW

Sent from my Elite8QI using Tapatalk

[Kestrel4k]

I'm a small fish here (so just my 1.5 cents), but .357 Mag is a natural IMO.
.223Rem is certainly a mega-market as well. So high-pressure capability might easily be worth a modest add'l expense?

I think factory-threaded barrels (i.e. for suppressors) are going to continue to take off beyond what a lot of folks think.
And with relatively few 'legacy' platforms out there already threaded (i.e. 'the competition'), the field is wide open.

For me to get a bbl threaded, the cheapest is ~$70 or so. I wonder what Ruger's manufacturing cost is for threading their bbls; a couple bucks??
As far as the various thread specs go, only one would need to be available; 1/2"x28.
That one spec takes me from 0.177" airgun all the way up to .350Rem Mag.
(Incl. 22LR, .223Rem,.30/.308, 9mm, .357)

[Lonegun1894]

Kestrel4K,
I hope to learn something here, so please forgive me for asking, but I was under the impression that 1/2x28 thread was only used for calibers such as .17/.22 rimfire, .223, 9mm (to include when a 9mm suppressor is used for subsonic .300BO) and .357 Mag. Who makes a suppressor capable of withstanding .308Win and .350 RemMag with 1/2x28 thread? You may have just expanded my suppressor wish list, but I have to ask cause my current .308 suppressor uses 5/8x24 thread.

[mcdaniel.mac]

Kestrel4K,
I hope to learn something here, so please forgive me for asking, but I was under the impression that 1/2x28 thread was only used for calibers such as .17/.22 rimfire, .223, 9mm (to include when a 9mm suppressor is used for subsonic .300BO) and .357 Mag. Who makes a suppressor capable of withstanding .308Win and .350 RemMag with 1/2x28 thread? You may have just expanded my suppressor wish list, but I have to ask cause my current .308 suppressor uses 5/8x24 thread.

Several companies make modular cans that use a serialized tube nd changeable endcaps. I have the Silencer Co Hybrid in jail right now, which is (IIRC) rated all the way to .45-70 or .458 SOCOM on a 16" barrel and .338 Lapua Magnum on new 18" barrel.

[EDG]

One of the real problems manufacturing anything in this country are the distribution costs, shipping and mark up added by the sellers.

To meet these costs and still provide a reasonable profit the cost of goods sold in the manufacturing company is about 40% to 50% of the selling price.
So if your expected price to the customer is $500 you probably need to be able to manufacture it and get it out the door for $250.

So you can imagine how close the margins are on Savage bolt guns and the H&R Handi Rifles...

[MT Gianni]

Visiting with distributors the margin is closer to 15% -18% on firearms. The real money is made on clothing in a sporting goods store.