What Am I Doing Wrong???

[willdixon]

Charlie - dear friend - I MEANT for you to smile.

And yes, much of what I know I learned from you, for which I have thanked you over and over.

I'm only puttin' you on, Charlie - with the voodoo stuff and such.

I'm the newest and dumbest shooter on the forum, and everyone knows that.

I've been lucky - and everyone also knows that.

Ha ha ha - and I just cast 30 bullets, and they're all frosty.

me

[willdixon]

Gentlemen:

All of the consternation to the contrary notwithstanding, I'm still going to keep the bullets for my 50/125/650 within a parametter of .5 grain.. I know some consider this overkill, and one worried poster even suggested I was not living in a "real world". But this self-imposed requirement is consistent with the criteria used by a number of renowned regional and national PP BPCR champions, and it is keeping me with a 1 to 1 1/2 MOA at 200 yards (the maximum of my present range), so it would be stupid for me to fiddle with this delightful combination. Besides, I've got nothing better to do than work on loads, and I love it.

But, if there is one, I have not yet learned the trick of casting bullets all within 1/2 grain of each other, so that constantly leaves me with a whole bunch of over and under weight slugs which I need to melt back down and pour again. So my question is . . . .

IS THERE ANY LIMIT TO THE NUMBER OF TIMES I CAN RE-MELT AND RE-POUR MY 20/1 LEAD COMPOUND? DOES IT "WEAR OUT" OR ANY SUCH THING?

44man, I'm not being notified about most of the posts directed to me, even though I have clicked on the little box which requests immediate email notification. And I was unaware of your post. But I don't have Antimony; I'm buying Fey certified 20:1 lead, from Midway AND from Buffalo, so I know it's not contaminated.

But I only discovered yesterday, my "frost" is from a rough BACO mould, and the roughness has been present from the day I cast the first bullet. But I doubt BACO will want to give me a new one now, after I've cast a couple hundred bullets through this one. But - if they don't give me a new one - I'm going to have to buy a new one from them. This roughness will not come out with a toothbrush and paste, nor Acetone.

R.M., I also was not notified of your post, so forgive me for not replying sooner.

Again, please understand, I love casting bullets and working on loads, and have nothing more enjoyable to do. You said you wanted, ". . . more time shooting and less time casting/sorting etc." But hyperkinetically and fastidiously tweaking my loads and attempting to wring every fraction of an inch out of my groups, is every bit as much fun to me as pulling the trigger; possibly more. And, since my only 14 shots so far - that is my total number of firings through this rifle to date - have all been 1 to 1 1/2MOA, at 100 and 200 yards, there would be no way of seeing your "point of diminishing return" without worstening my MOA record. I'd have to get sloppy and shoot worse patterns, in order to determine the merit of my .5gn pattern, and I'm not that curious about your points of diminishing returns to give up this good thing.

But I certainly comprehend and appreciate your thinking, and would love to see someone else play with their groups and bullet weights, but I'm simply unwilling to do that.

Thanks for the post.

Oh yeah, and - please - anybody - why do we spell the word "boolits".

And what, please, are "stickies"?

Thank you very much!

[Bent Ramrod]

"Stickies" are topics judged to be of sufficiently general interest that they "stick" to the top of the list of topics regardless of the age of the last posting.

"Boolits" is the spelling this site uses to distinguish cast bullets from jacketed bullets, the latter being spelled "bullets." This spelling is specific to this site; other sites use other designations. For instance, I believe Paco Kelly calls cast bullets "CBs," so you might see that designator on his site.

Casting within 0.5 grain is not an easy task. I have a Paul Jones 544-gr .45 caliber mould that casts 98% of its projectiles well within 2 grains, and I think it's doing amazingly good at that. I divide them into 544-to-545 and 545+ categories and shoot those in groups. I suppose they could be divided further into half-grain increments, and each of those weight regions shot as a group, if one wished. For an important match or some critical subtlety of load development, this might be in order. I would imagine that's what those champions do: select from good casting runs rather than cast every boolit perfectly.

Merrill Martin and others have drilled thermal well holes in their mould blocks, fitted them with thermometers and only cast their "keeper" boolits within some narrow temperature range, pouring throwaways to warm the mould and blowing an air stream on it to cool it back. They claimed a greater consistency for the weights by doing this. There may be people on this site that have tried this (BruceB?). A search might find something about it.

You are doing very well with the paper patching. I'm still at the 4MOA level with them myself, although the grease-groove boolits are down to half that. (On a good day, when the old "shoulder mirage" isn't acting up.)

[45nut]

Oh yeah, and - please - anybody - why do we spell the word "boolits".

see my signature......

[montana_charlie]

I have not yet learned the trick of casting bullets all within 1/2 grain of each other, so that constantly leaves me with a whole bunch of over and under weight slugs which I need to melt back down and pour again.

In this picture of yours, you have three separate groups of bullets that weigh within .5 grains of each other. Each grouping contains eight bullets.
If those were loaded up, and kept segregated by bullet weight, you could fire three 8-round target groups in which all bullets (in a given target) are witnin .5 grains.

That way, you could 'keep' 24 bullets from that spread, instead of eight.

There is also a fourth bunch that contains six bullets. Those are weight-matched within 1 tenth of a grain. Six-round target groups are also quite useful.

If you kept all four groups...which are conveniently located in the center and to the heavy side of center in your overall range...you would only be remelting 13 of the pictured bullets.

As a side note...
Judging by the reflections seen on the surfaces of those bullets, none of them look frosty to me...

So my question is . . . .

IS THERE ANY LIMIT TO THE NUMBER OF TIMES I CAN RE-MELT AND RE-POUR MY 20/1 LEAD COMPOUND? DOES IT "WEAR OUT" OR ANY SUCH THING?

The 'metals' won't wear out, but they can be 'lost' due to oxidation.
(They don't disappear...you take them out when skimming.)

If your fluxing method does not do a good job of 'reducing oxides' (that is returning them to their original state) then you will be removing metal from your pot when 'skim'.
Because tin oxidizes more readily than lead, and because there is less of it in your mixture, you could end up with (say) 30:1 alloy.
CM

[willdixon]

Bent Ramrod - thank you for the help!

You say, "Casting 0.5 grain is not an easy task."

See - that is what everyone here has insisted, but that is the opposite of how I feel about it.

I would say, "Casting 0.5 grain is fun, and I enjoy every second of it!"

I've learned that many of the Sharps shooters on this forum are into this hobby because they love to shoot the Sharps - at paper or at animals. But load preparation - to some - is only a chore they have to wade through in order to do some shooting.

But I'm the opposite of that.

Designing and building the loads which will shoot 1 MOA or less, at long distances, is more fun to me than pulling the trigger!

And we all do know this sort of precision is what makes for teeny patterns at long distances.

Remember, Steve Brooks keeps his bullets down to 0.10 - 1/10th of a grain! FIVE TIMES MORE CAREFUL THAN I!

Dave Grulher keeps his within 0.20 - 2/10ths of a grain! MORE THAN TWICE AS CAREFUL AS I!

And I know other champtions who keep theirs at 0.5 like I do.

It's fun! I love it!

No, those champions don't "cast every boolit perfectly". They just re-melt those which do not fall within their parameters - which is what I learned from them, and what I do.

"Shoulder mirage"? I'm so dumb - what is "shoulder mirage"?

Again, thank you very much, Bent Ramrod, for your help!

[docone31]

Will, Good for you! I hope you get to show a young person.
After many years of muckin about chaseing degrees, truckin', I became a jeweler. I wish I had known someone who at least spoke of such precision. I learned it later on.
On my smaller bores, I am happy with 1gn difference. We are not talking 500gn monsters, we are talking under 200gn. It gets harder with size. A lot of factors come into play.
I have enjoyed reading this thread. I wish I still had my Sharps. I was lucky to hit much with my casting back then, today is different. I had to stick with jacketeds. Same with my #1, lead made a mess in the bore. I knew nothing.
I have enjoyed this thread. I hope you can post more photos.
I think you will make it.
I have learned a lot.

[willdixon]

Good morning, docone31 -

Thank you for your very kind post.

Ha ha - you said, "We are not talking 500gn monsters...."

Man, I'm using 650 grain monsters! Like so:



But ain't it a daisy!

And you were talking earlier about loose dry paper patches. Mine definitely are not any more loose than they would have been had I applied them wet:



And I don't need to twist the bottoms, like you mentioned earlier, and clip them off. I use the regular brass patch cutting pattern from BACO, and a patch cut by it just turns under at the bottom of the bullet, without any extra paper down there.

Speaking of my precision standards, every time I carefully weigh my bullets, my powder, and my brass, and mike everything precisely, I think of those "buffalo hunters" out on the great plains, loading up at night by lantern light, in their tents or out in the open, with dirt everywhere and the wind howling....

But, of course, all they had to hit was a 2000 pound bison at 100 yards or so, and they didn't need any precision. I'd love to have been there with them in that age! I was born way too late!

Anyway, thanks again for the help.

[docone31]

Will, I wonder if we were born too late.
I got my first doctorate, took a look around, and just walked into the woods. I can tell you, after four years of living off the land with only a Buck Knife to start with, we do have some cconviences! Dentists are one of them.
I got frozen up there, my teeth shattered in the jaw from freezing. That brought me back into "reality".
I like being able to go to Wally World, just pick up a tablet of tracing paper, and a paper cutter, sit in my living room I built, and "roll my own".
Back to my second divorce, I was pretty much homeless having lost everything, so I had nothing better to do than travel the country on my MC and just go and visit the old gunmakers and their families. I got to see the old barrel making machines, the handmade tools. The handmade barrel reamer, and rifling machine, the powder tumblers, screens, powder testers. I mean I got an head full!
I do not mean Springfield Armory. I mean the backyard boys. 20yrs ago, some were still at it.
I saw them make browning, some of the most beautiful pieces of wood I have ever seen to this day! I got to see a barrel get "freshed".
I love blacksmithing, but, I got broken. Torn rotator cuffs, severely mangled back, neck. So I am a jeweler. All that seeing definately helps what I do. I can say that.
I still remember the damp, severe cold, food gone bad, or wet, clothes wearing out and having nothing to replace them. Almost never having flat ground to sleep on. Going to sleep and some schluk tries to cut my throat. Waking up to a large animal peeing on my shelter, eveything scattered.
How about falling through the ice with only char cloth and steel, with no place to go to, no tinder, no wood, 40* below. Having to shed everything to get out.
I would do it again however. This time with what I learned.
Them be some beautiful rounds!
I miss my Sharps.
I hope you get a youngun to go shootin. Not just sitting there and pulling the trigger. I mean the whole ticket! I bet that will change that person forever.
Good meeting you.

[willdixon]

Hi again 44man -

In one of my posts above, I mentioned that I stir my lead with my dipper and leave the dipper in the pot with the melted lead.

But you said, "NEVER, never, ever put your ladle down in the lead or stir with it."

And I've been following your instructions completely.

But my new Lyman brass tumbler just arrived, with a booklet on BULLET CASTING AND RELOADING. And, on page 20, the manual says,"Whichever flux substance you choose, be sure to stir the mixture with the dipper. . . . While the dipper is not in use, it should be left in the molten metal to keep it hot."

Who knows. . . .

[willdixon]

I appreciated so very much all you guys trying to help me determine what I was doing wrong in my casting - all my bullets were rough and frosty. But - even with your help - I never could get them to clear up.

TODAY I LEARNED WHAT THE PROBLEM WAS ALL ALONG - I WAS USING JUNK LEAD, FROM A NOT SO HONEST DEALER! AND I HAD TO EITHER FLUX OR SCRAPE THE TRASH OFF THE SURFACE OF THE LEAD AFTER ALMOST EVERY BULLET. BUT I WAS TOO NEW AND GREEN TO KNOW ANY BETTER, AND I WAS POURING THAT TRASHY LEAD INTO MY MOULD!

The place I was buying it from said it was "certified", but they didn't tell you what it was supposedly certified for! But it certainly was not for the purity of the lead! And I've had serious problems with that same company on other matters before. Their sales manager was so rude to my wife about a $180 order, last week, he almost had her in tears on the phone!

TODAY I SOLVED THE PROBLEM!

AND I SAVED MONEY!

I bought ten pounds of 20:1 VIRGIN LEAD/TIN alloy from John Walters at Thetinwadman@cox.net. And it was only $2.30 a pound, plus $6 for shipping the ten pounds - cheaper than the trash I was buying from the other guy.

Now all my bullets are clean and gorgeous!

And, when I got John's lead, it felt heavier than 10 pounds to me, so I weighed it, and it turned out to be 14 1/2 pounds - not 10! And I'll surely pay him for the generous overage!

I cannot recommend John Walters highly enough!

[willdixon]

I posted a reply . . . .

[montana_charlie]

Will,
There are a number of reliable sources for lead and alloys. But, for the enlightenment of all here...would you care to name the source that treated you so poorly?
CM

[Echo]

+1 for Montana Charlie. I think it is entirely appropriate to let your chums in on apoor dealer.

[willdixon]

No, sorry Easy Ed, I've seen too many of those "he said, she said, they said" petty squabbles on forums.

And all you can really learn from me is (a) "certified lead" does not mean virgin lead, (b) contaminated lead can cause endless casting problems, and (c) you can buy absolutely virgin lead alloys for a great price: John Walters - Thetinwadman@cox.net

Anything more than that is little more than back fence gossip.

[montana_charlie]

No, sorry Easy Ed, I've seen too many of those "he said, she said, they said" petty squabbles on forums.

And all you can really learn from me is (a) "certified lead" does not mean virgin lead, (b) contaminated lead can cause endless casting problems, and (c) you can buy absolutely virgin lead alloys for a great price: John Walters - Thetinwadman@cox.net

Anything more than that is little more than back fence gossip.

Well, I knew that discussions with willdixon (on this forum and others) had mentioned his actual alloy, so I searched until I found this...

No, I'm using Fey certified lead/tin, with no antimony.

I am absolutely positive the frost on my bullets is not symptomatic of my lead being too hot. I've experimented, repeatedly, by allowing my lead to get cooler and cooler, while continuing to cast, and even when the lead commences to solidify in the pot, the bullets are still dropping out frosty.

From that, I would presume the ingots come marked by the Fey mould. If not, the alloy has been melted and recast by somebody, which means all bets are off...

CM

[leftiye]

Not hard atall to believe that the wrong alloy could cause this problem. Especially if another alloy cured it! Good fer ya!

[willdixon]

Leftiye - the John Walker lead made all the difference in the world in my bullet's external appearance - clean and smooth and bright. And I'll bet their weights will be much closer together than the other compound, and heavier.

By the way, someone asked whether my dirty ingots were marked by some mould; they were not. I only know from whom I purchased them, and that the vendor advertised they were "certified", which turned out to mean nothing.

The appearance of these new bullets makes a graphic illustration of the difference of the quality of the alloy.

Thanks for the kind words.

[HeavyMetal]

I've got one mold that requires a bunch of heat to pour good boolits. It's a iron Lyman single cavity.

Last casting session I took to leaving a corner of the mold in the melt, till the lead fell off, then left it in while I poured the boolit! This left a nice molten sprue for a goodly bit of time but the boolits are very consistant and sharply filled out!

frosting hasn't happened. I wouldn't worry about it if it did happen!

Just a suggestion for next time out.

[willdixon]

Hi Heavy Metal - thank you for the suggestion.

And yes, several of the guys have recommended - like you did - placing the bottom of the mould onto the surface of the lead to heat up the mould until the lead would no longer stick to the mould. And it sounds like a great idea to me, and I've been very much tempted to do it.

Problem is, the Lyman Reloading Manual specifically warns that you must not do this. They don't tell you why not, they only tell you not to do it, so I've been just a little afraid to try it.

Kind of like the one brother here to said to "never, never ever stir the lead with the ladel nor allow the ladle to sit in the molten lead". Yet the Lyman Manual very clearly says you should stir the lead with the ladle and you ought to leave the ladle in the molten lead when you're not pouring with it.

I don't believe everything I see in print, but I feel I ought to give the manufacturer a little bit of credit for some of these matters. I really don't know.

Anyway, thank you very much for the recommendation.