How bad does a rifle bore have to be before it won't shoot well?

[tazman]

How bad can a barrel be and still shoot well?
By well I mean 3 inches at 100 yards. I don't expect match grade accuracy from a 100 year old gun without re-barreling it which I am not inclined to do.
Specifically, I am looking at Model 17 Enfield rifles in 30-06.
I am not terribly familiar with older military rifles. I don't want a safe queen. I want a rifle that will shoot well enough to be interesting but don't much care about looks other than I would like it to be in original configuration or nearly so. Dings in the stock or a little rust doesn't bother me as long as it will shoot.
I have looked down the barrels of several rifles lately and bores were black or nearly so. I didn't see pitting but I couldn't really tell much due to the color/dirt/fouling that was in the barrel. Hard to make a decision when you can't see well.
Also, what faults or damage should I look for specifically on these older rifles?
Thanks for any advice and information you have.

[M-Tecs]

While we all want the bore to be as perfect as possible results from the target are all that matter. I have seen rifles that had significant issues yet they still shot very well.

I own a 30/40 Krag that was owned by a very famous early 1900's photographer that has a bore that looks like a rattail file turned inside out yet it shoots sub MOA.

Uneven or damaged throats or muzzles/crowns seem to effect accuracy the most.

[racepres]

I prefer a 1917 that has already been arsenal rebarrelled..look for a JA or HS or??? there may be others IDK on the underside of the barrel near the front ...Not always "better" but, generally they are..

[tazman]

While we all want the bore to be as perfect as possible results from the target are all that matter. I have seen rifles that had significant issues yet they still shot very well.

I own a 30/40 Krag that was owned by a very famous early 1900's photographer that has a bore that looks like a rattail file turned inside out yet it shoots sub MOA.

Uneven or damaged throats or muzzles/crowns seem to effect accuracy the most.

So that sounds like if it isn't badly pitted, it may be fine for my use. Good to know.
It also sounds like I will have to buy one and try it out to find out. Possibly expensive and frustrating given my luck.

I prefer a 1917 that has already been arsenal rebarrelled..look for a JA or HS or??? there may be others IDK on the underside of the barrel near the front ...Not always "better" but, generally they are..

Thanks for posting that. I wasn't aware they did that very much. I also figured those were already snapped up by someone who wanted a shooter and didn't care if the numbers all matched.

[Scharfschuetze]

Emptor caveat Taz.

While some worn barrels may shoot well, the odds are against one shooting as well as a good barrel. I have a Portuguese Mauser with a dark bore that shoots as well as any of my "perfect" bore Mausers; but, and this is the big but, the rifling is still sharp and well defined with no pitting. One really never knows until he tries.

I'm not a gambling man, so I leave the worn and pitted bore rifles on the shelf or the gun show table.

[M-Tecs]

So that sounds like if it isn't badly pitted, it may be fine for my use. Good to know.
It also sounds like I will have to buy one and try it out to find out. Possibly expensive and frustrating given my luck.

My Krag is severely pitted yet it still shoots like a match rifle. It's the best shooting Krag I have fired. When I first looked at it I thought it was unsafe to fire.

I installed a new never installed GI 1903 barrel made in 1944 that shoots terrible but looks great. You never know until you test.

The independent shop's I use will let me test before I purchase. Never hurts to ask.

[racepres]

Thanks for posting that. I wasn't aware they did that very much. I also figured those were already snapped up by someone who wanted a shooter and didn't care if the numbers all matched.

And, I wasn't aware that they Numbered the Barrels..But, Matching numbers is about the Last thing I look at..Just a Bonus for me..So Many "Fake" numbers matching going on out there...it makes me Weary

[LAGS]

With Worn bores, if you hand load, it will take more time to Work Up an accurate load.
But you can get the most out of your rifle by handloading, a lot of testing, to find out what your rifle likes to shoot best, and at what speed.

[opos]

I've messed with "sporterized" 1917's a lot over the years...I don't cut them up any more..not for many years but in the 60's and before they were great rifles to make into "deer rifles". One thing that is pointed out in Hatcher's notebook is the situation with headspace in the 1917's...often the headspace (if measured with "modern" gauges) is pretty loose...I have one right now that will close on a no go (barely) and needs to have the field gauge used to keep the bolt from closing...I think this may be pretty common with them...at any rate it shot ok and no problems with pressure or stretching signs but I got a set of Lee Collet dies in 30-06 and now only load for that rifle with brass shot in that rifle and neck sized with the collet dies...it shoots nice tight groups and the brass is in great condition...I watch all rifle brass for the possible head separation indications (visual and use a dental pick to check the inside of the case) and I've got 5 reloadings with the Lee Collet dies and no indications of any issues at all and it shoots well with medium to upper medium loads with 180 smk bullets.

my 2 cents worth.

[racepres]

I watch all rifle brass for the possible head separation indications (visual and use a dental pick to check the inside of the case) and I've got 5 reloadings with the Lee Collet dies and no indications of any issues at all and it shoots well with medium to upper medium loads with 180 smk bullets.

my 2 cents worth.

Not likely to encounter any "separation" signs, If ya Only Neck size..That is the Reason to neck size, and also why Wildcatters, [and most folks who shoot for groups] neck size only..Once fireformed...you are good to go...

[Smokepole45]

I would never write off a dirty old rifle as inaccurate until I had it good and clean first. Many you will see at gun shows or LGS are very dusty. Some sellers will let you run a patch through before you start serious negotiations. There are a number of good threads here about cleaning gunked up bores. Get it as clean as you can first, then slug the bore before you quit trying. Good Luck!

[swheeler]

I have found that shooting cast bullets will clean a bore up pretty well, especially if cast bullets have a lot of antimony in them. It may take a thousand or two but that's the fun part, shoot-clean, shoot clean, shoot-shoot-shoot.

[country gent]

Get the best "look" into the barrel you can while inspecting it . There are prisim that work okay for this better is a bore scope. Another is the military throat gages and muzzle gages to check for throat wer and muzzles rod damaged from cleaning abuse. These old rifles may take some tender loving care and a little work to find the load but normally can be gotten to shoot decently. A piece of paper inserted into the action and under the muzzle reflects more light into the bore to help see. A tight fitting patch and jag can tell you alot also by how it pushes thru the bore, and the condition of the patch after. I would check headspace with gages, throat and muzzle with appropriate gages, and set solid a good look into the bore, then a patch ran thru the bore. In the end its a guess untill you shoot it and test it. I have a hawkeye bore scope and can see alot but its still a guess untill its shot.

[seppos]

If I remember right in Finish army they did a study about the effects of damaged riffling. The conclution was that the sicnificance of riffling grows as we get closer to the end of the barrel. Dont remember how long should the undamaged part be though..
The Britts had same experiences with they paradox guns that basicly where shotguns with riffled chokes.

S

[JSnover]

How bad can a barrel be and still shoot well?
By well I mean 3 inches at 100 yards. I don't expect match grade accuracy from a 100 year old gun without re-barreling it which I am not inclined to do.
Specifically, I am looking at Model 17 Enfield rifles in 30-06.
I am not terribly familiar with older military rifles.

You're not asking for too much. People tend to look down their nose at 3" groups but for military rifles the spec for acceptance has been 3MOA for about a century or so, though most of them shot much better. Bear in mind these were built as tools for infantrymen, on an assembly line, rebuilt by arsenal 'gun mechanics' and they still shot well enough. Rifles selected for precision shooting were a different story.
If the bore isn't totally wrecked and the crown is ok you'll probably be fine.

[Scharfschuetze]

There are prisim that work okay

I take these GI throat and bore mirrors with me any time I'm looking at a used rifle. It's amazing what you can detect with them. These are inserted into the chamber for a close up look at the throat and initial rifling. I have passed on many a rifle that otherwise looked to be good.

For the other end of the barrel, if you don't have a muzzle wear gauge, then you can also used cast bullets sized to specific diameters to check muzzle wear or cleaning rod damage.

Remember that a damaged crown can usually be fixed, but a damaged or worn throat is a different proposition.

[Shiloh]

Boolit fit has a lot to do with accuracy.

Shiloh

[ascast]

In my experience, the crown is the single most important issue as it controls the separation of bullets from shock tube. Uniform wear is OK, but any rust pits, dings or cleaning rod wear on that line and it may be hopeless. That "line" is the final breaking edge of the barrel insides, be it groove or rifling, and the end of the barrel, be it rounded or flat or what ever. Even damage can be fixed ( maybe) with a re-crown or counterbore, if your willing. Either of these can be done to preserve the original external dimensions. I always carry a hand lens and strong flash light to check that. An over cut or shot out throat, you gotta set back the barrel or seat bullets way out. Unless the rifling is really worn right off or the rust spots are so big they allow "free flight" you can probably get it to shoot 3 inches. You might have to back off the speed a bit.
I try to avoid that stuff anymore.

[skeettx]

Buy it cheap.
Clean the bore as best you can.
Shoot good jacketed ammo first to iron out
the areas of issue,
Clean the bore as best you can.
Shoot good heavy boolits in the gun to compare.
Clean the bore as best you can.
Then you will know what it will do
Then shoot the heck out of it.

I shot my P-14 Enfield 45-70 this morning
What fun, what fun

Mike

P.S. remember P-17s are cock on closing

[tdoyka]

You're not asking for too much. People tend to look down their nose at 3" groups but for military rifles the spec for acceptance has been 3MOA for about a century or so, though most of them shot much better. Bear in mind these were built as tools for infantrymen, on an assembly line, rebuilt by arsenal 'gun mechanics' and they still shot well enough. Rifles selected for precision shooting were a different story.
If the bore isn't totally wrecked and the crown is ok you'll probably be fine.

i agree with him.

my 30-40 krag doesn't have a barrel that is pitted but neither does it have a mirror finish. mine has been chopped to 21 and something" and the crown is alright. i've bought a peep sight(redfield) on evilbay and it does roughly 3/4 - 1 1/2" at 100 yards. when it was military rear sight issue, it would go 1 1/2 - 2 1/2" at 100 yards. i would be perfectly happy if my krag could do 3moa. i use it only for hunting deer and once in a while a informal(friends) shoot. if you would go to a real target shoot, i would go with a customed barrel.

i use a 165gr ranch dog with 25.5gr of h4198 and it goes roughly 1800fps(i don't own a chrono).